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As the old Catholic saying goes: Dadme el milagro y no el santo. Or roughly: Give us the miracle, but not the saint.

Good deeds are far more important than the names they were borne by.

posted by Boquisucio on February 24, 2007 6:08 AM

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where do we get these wonderful brave heroes.
Thank you for this post,
patti

posted by patti on February 24, 2007 8:06 AM

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Sounds a lot like this story.

posted by FbL on February 24, 2007 8:17 AM

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� Dismissed, Soldier!

Self centered but proffered honestly (which is another way of saying, ‘Not in the face! Not in the nads!’).

� Secure this line!

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Hmm i agree Ry guilt is one of the driving forces of it. Here are a few other commments;

'War weariness' as it is called is nothing new and there should be no surprise that it's present now either.

It all relates to basic support for the war. War wearniess in Afghanistan is considerably lower and it's important to pay attention to why.

War weariness builds off disaffectedness. Those who were not supportive of Bush from before 9/11 and the war declarations are already part of war weariness.

More disaffection comes with the switch in focus to Iraq. Many wanted revenge and with Afghanistan it was satiated sufficiently. And yet more still with the switch in focus to nation building from WoMD in Iraq. This speaks very heavily of the lack of understanding Normals had of the war(s). I'm suggesting here it was 'sold' very badly.

Disaffection and thus war weariness builds off divisions in communities. One obvious division is that of republican and democrat and n'er the twain shall meet. It's a problem in the US that many Americans define themselves as Democrat or Republican first and American later on. That means while the Republicans easily slot in generally supportive the Democrats are largely in the no war zone. How many other divisons are there?

Yet more disaffection by timing. The concept of WoMD removal is fast and the wording of Bush and his supporters has always been of the not long now kind. Things like 'dead enders' the victory speech and the 'turning the corner' have gone on long enough that people are disaffected. This was never going to be a short war pretending otherwise is unhelpful.

The dead and the injured also disaffect people. The guilt Ry mentions the realisation of a cost that seems unstemed.

The lack of good news and rainstorm of bad news. Our MSMs failures have been covered plenty. IMO too the military stinks at media relations which has made the situation worse. And then there is the news itself.

General military disaffection. I'm less sure about the US but over here the military has shrunk and grown very insular so that many people don't know someone in the military. Don't know what they want or why they do it.

This relates to emotional investment which resists disaffection in this war. How much are the mall-goers invested in the war?

posted by Trias on February 24, 2007 6:34 AM

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The Catechism is meant to expand on the RCC's tenets (which refer to faith and morals, which are absolutes) and traditions (which refer to those issues on which there is wriggle room); for example, refraining from red meat on Friday was tradition -- a small sacrifice on our part to remind us to meditate on the infinitely larger sacrifice which occurred on Good Friday -- which grew to tenet status through 500 years of misunderstanding, but was never an actual tenet.

One of the problems the Catechism's authors had with the whole section on war (although they did a decent job, considering they, too, had an agenda) is based on the wording of the Fifth Commandment as translated in the King James Version of the Bible -- "Thou shalt not kill" is powerful language, but "Thou shalt not murder" is the proper translation. The former is an absolute prohibition against taking any life and the latter is an absolute prohibition against taking *innocent* life.

You have the right to kill an attacker in self-defense when less-extreme measures fail; a soldier who kills someone (e.g., an enemy soldier or guerrilla) attempting to kill him (or attempting to kill his fellow soldiers, or noncombatants) is not guilty of murder and has not violated the Fifth Commandment.

Feeling any better?

posted by BillT on February 24, 2007 6:39 AM

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What is this, depression week at the Castle or something? First me, now Ry...whose next?

Ay yi yi!

I have my own take on the whole Normals thing but I'll keep it to my self. I will say there probably are some like Ry, and I think 99.9% of us military folk will say "Don't sweat it."

But for me I ain't military anymore. So I'm in your boat these days. Move over. Got another paddle I can use?

posted by BloodSpite on February 24, 2007 7:56 AM

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What are we tired of? Guilt.

Bingo. And I think that's true even for the relatively-uninformed who are so busy, inwardly-focused, and separate from any military contact that they forget about the fighting. When they're suddenly reminded of it, that's when the guilt comes. But they may not even recognize it as guilt; they just know they don't feel very good when they think about people fighting and dying... and being the self-centered and small-thinking people they are, they want the bad feelings to stop. At all costs.

posted by FbL on February 24, 2007 8:22 AM

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Guilt?! Are you serious?

Give me a break. Really.

What have any of us got to feel guilty for?

There is nothing to feel guilty about. Or, more to the point, if you do feel guilty about something, it's most likely that you think you're not doing enough to earn what others are willing to give on your behalf. To quote a famous amphibian, "That's nutso!"

I dunno... If it were folks other than you writing that stuff, I'd say that guilt thing is all a little too 'all about me-ish." But considering it's you'se guys, that's probably not it, so here's what I think (did you think I wouldn't tell you? Ha.):

I think you are confusing guilt over the war with self-disgust caused by repressed anger. I think all of us are just plain sick and tired of all of the crap attendant to the war (from both sides of our house), and of the boorish, self-righteous, ignominious, conceit-driven, narcissistic Euro-elitist bull$hit the left leaning scumsuckers in the world keep serving up. And what adds spice to that indigestion is the fact that all of those sorry excuses for human beings are only able to say and do all of that vile things they do BECAUSE of the people and the institutions they denigrate so routinely.

I don't feel guilty about the war or about people dying (on any side). I'm not working against the war, I'm not supporting the enemy, I'm not denigrating the people fighting the war, and I did my time--the Army had its chance to get me killed but it and God saw fit to spare me so I could make life miserable for all sorts of unhappy people. And if the enemy came to where I could get at him, I'd have no problem doing my part to make another martyr. But I don't feel the slightest bit guilty for not rushing out to take up arms alongside my military descendants. I am willing if needed, and that's enough for me to know. But my country hasn't called on me yet because I'm really not needed out there, and there are plenty of people yet who are more than willing and able to get in line in front of me at the sign-up table.

Of course, I work for the government now, and in my very small way, I am working in support of the national interests, so in that regard, maybe I'm insulated from feeling guilty about not doing more. Fact is, I was running a small business in Indiana when, after several years of feeling empty and adrift, I realized I missed being part of something bigger than myself, and so I left that job (taking a $20K a year pay cut the first year, and $10K each year for the next three--all of which is only next month going to be made up for)...

So where does that leave folks who aren't working for the government in some respect or doing something to help the cause? Maybe you feel guilty that you want people to fight a war or that you derive pleasure from their successes at war fighting--well, that's your inner demon, and not much I can say will change that, I guess--but as I've been accused of somewhat recently, I think you're over-thinking this too much.

We have an enemy who wishes us harm. We are fighting that enemy. If we did not he would cause us more harm. We are morally bound to defend ourselves and our nation from that enemy, and we are doing that vigorously and violently. The methods used, the timing of events, the mistakes, the successes, the sadness and horror, the constant barrage of will-sapping nonsense we have to endure (like having to take off our &$%* shoes to get on an airplane), and even the mistakes of excess by our leaders are of no real consequence, have no import. We are at war and we have no choice but to fight it.

Once you accept that as truth, the rest becomes easy. Some folks have to carry guns in the war, some have to carry the wounded, some have to carry bodies home, some will have to carry the memories of horror their entire lives. And some are not yet called to serve. And that's as it should be too.

You know, I was really put off by that silly-a$$ed "America is at the Mall" posting. Yeah, people are at the mall. And they are mowing their lawns, and eating at Wendy's, and buying new baby furniture, and getting married, and fighting with stage-4 lymphoma in a favorite uncle and brother-in-law, and burying their favorite dog...and just otherwise having a life.

Which is what the stinking war is all about. Americans live life a certain way--all sorts of ways. Not everyone in this country is really, truly aware of the evils that live beyond our borders, or of what's waiting for them in the beyond, where the sand beneath curves off into the deeper blue and the water turns really cold.

And that's just fine with me....

I was told by a senior NCO once--when I was complaining that too few Americans really appreciated the threat of the Communists or the evils of the world--that this was perfectly fine, even preferable to him. He said he'd much rather most Americans didn't know what was out there. He preferred that Americans were able to live a good life, relatively untroubled and untouched by the constant fear that haunted the Europeans or the Africans, or the Asians, or the Latin Americans... He said he knew that a lot of American adults built fantasies around their supposed understanding of the world, and that made life hard when they accosted soldiers, for example. Those folks, he'd have liked to send to Africa for a few months. Or to East Germany or China. BUT, he also said --and on this he was clear-- he did not want every American to know everything, he did not want American children to grow up with that edge of doubt that kills adventurism, that kills self-confidence, that makes people afraid to look over the wall in the first place. In his opinion, Americans know what can be, and when they find themselves confronted by the worst kind of evils, it is their innate self-confidence and their faith in the rightness of things that enables them to do what has to be done even in the worst of circumstances. He said his job was to stand on the wall so others could enjoy the life his service gave them, and he would have it no other way. And he knew that it was his willingness to do that which ensured there would be another person willing to take his place when it was time. One of the many who look up at some point in their lives and ask, "I wonder what's on the other side of the wall?" And then move to find out....

So my point is, we're at war. And as long as you're not working against the war, and you're doing something to help, in some small way (even by posting opinions on blogs in opposition to those who are supporting the enemy, or more likely, just don't get it), then there is nothing, zip, nada, zilch to feel guilty about.

And as for that knot of suppressed anger? Well, short of playing Deathrace 2000 with the antifuneral protestors, for example, it's just something I'm going to have to live with. What makes that easier for me, though, is the knowledge that comes with experience that in the end, the deatheaters are going to get theirs. God is on our side, and as long as we remain true, we will prevail, and it won't be _US_ who has anything to feel guilty about.

'Nuff said

V/R
SangerM

posted by SangerM on February 24, 2007 11:15 AM

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Unca Chief, yeah, I got that. I know I'm young and soooo unexperienced and all. That it's damn hard not to just step in and tell us child'n what to do or how to do a job. (That's your Cross to carry at this point, yeah?)

BUt, I got that out of the Cathecism. What you just said was exactly my read of that particular part of it. BUt what does the whole say about people who force the issue about fighting optional wars?

You know, Carl van C said that there's many different types of courage. I think that, knowing what I know, that I pushed for Iraq anyways says something. When I get to the Pearly Gates I've got the argument of a life on my hands. BUt I said go anyway.

But thanks just the same. I'm very glad you care enough to say 'Don't be sad' the way you did. That you said it means a lot. Really. You coming from the same tradition and, well, being who you are it matters.

BloodSpite. I'm not depressed. I'm pissed, and not in Sanger's psycho-analytical self hating way.

You know, you're not a Normal either(neither is Sanger, John, Bill, Dusty, or Boq for that matter). YOu're not the Prussian camp follower of yore, but you aren't like me and Fuzzy. You're a Veteran---which actually means something in the scheme of things. Some times you guys have trouble relating to what we Normals think as you've been shaped by your experiences. Your mindset is different. YOu can say, "Don't sweat it." YOu have the benefit of knowing someone higher up the line made the call, someone else is responsible, able to just chock it up to 'It was his time' because there's no better way of getting thru. But who is that higher up? Does the Pres act totally on his own, or is he somewhat the embodiment of We the People? If the latter, and he is, then what does that say about We the People and our culpability?

I'm pissed because some of our mil friends just dissed us most harshly by calling us unserious sheeple. Argghhh is a great place because Normal and Warrior co-mingle and both pov get heard and considered---even if a given argument is ultimately called crap. But there's real reasons why some of us are experiencing war weariness and finding it hard to buck up to stay with the Team on this. I have my good days and my bad days. But I haven't abandoned the project yet(unlike Lowry and some of the other NRO-ites). I'm not depressed. I'm just pissed that people I do care about and support as best I can, since I cannot be of their Brotherhood, think me and mine are nothing but unserious sheeple. That's a sentiment we take the Left to task for repeatedly. I just tried not to spittle froth. How'd I do?

Sanger. Well, thanks for not punching me in the face or kicking me in the nads. I just don't think you get it. I appreciate the argument you made---it's very similar to BloodSpite's----but I don't think you get it. You're technically a civilian but still you're not. you're a veteran. I hate the whole classification thing, but it's a naturally occuring grouping and self selecting.

Your psycho analysis doesn't apply to me in particular, but might in general. I've tried to get in. They wont take me. Bad eyes. Bad knees. Even though I scored near the top in all categories(except for mechanical and logistics) on the ASVAB the two times I've been to meps they won't take me. So I find other ways. Like charity work. Like public arguments in favor of the war. BUt it doesn't really apply to me.

I know you take religion somewhat seriously. You aren't a real fan of it, but you take God seriously. Moral codes matter to you, and so does honoring that code by living it. What I'm telling you is that some of us are in an almost ASimovian logic trap because one element of our moral code is in extreme conflict with another element.

I don't think you get it. We civilians can't simply say, "Ain't no thing." Or, 'Don't mean nothin'" We can't. We don't have the necessity to use such philosophical expedients. To use the power of sending men to war responsibly we CAN'T take the route soldiers do. "Ain't no thing." We have a responsibility to you to use you wisely. It's the civilian half of the bargain whereby the military leaves policy to the civilians. I take that responsibility very seriously. So I'm not going to just say, "Ry, get over it. Don't mean nothing. Buck up."

It does mean something. In a sense that's why I pointed to 'Redliners' the other day. 'God' is somewhat a personification of my argument--though I'm sure some around here will say I'm more "God's" aid because of my distance from real decision making. It does mean something Sanger. And finding an expedient to get thru it isn't enough. Not for me anyway. I've been accused of having a martyr complex before. Maybe this is the manifestation? But philosophical expedient is not for me in this case.

So, I respectfully disagree. But glad you care enough to say, "Snap out of it, you twit!";)

Trias. Not ignoring you, but since you predominately agree no point in hashing stuff out with you. Same for Fuzzy.

Now excuse me while I do my form of 'Going to the Mall' by watching Naruto with The Wife. Life does go on. War or no War.

posted by ry on February 24, 2007 7:39 PM

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War weariness? I didn't realize there was a name for it or so much behind it. You guys are way smarter than me, for darn sure.

I just think it's hard watching my best friends and cousins go off to the sandbox and wonder if they're going to come back. I wonder if we're going to win, because I wonder if I can can trust the media who reports the actions of this war.

I'm weary of all the argument.

posted by J-P on February 24, 2007 9:57 PM

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Sorry about the double post - I forgot something.

Just cause I'm weary doesn't mean I want run away and make the world think we're cowards. It's just hard is all I'm saying, to know that friends and loved ones are in danger.

I'd actually very much like for them to kick complete and total a$$ and *then* come home to us.

posted by J-P on February 24, 2007 10:05 PM

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Well, I'm not Catholic, so that stuff doesn't affect me. However, I'm also not a veteran - and it's long past the point when I can change that.

On the occasions that I've had guilt twinges, it has been pointed out to me that the war-fighters are fighting Precisely So that I can lead this mundane, unthreatened life. So there is a normal to come home to, where people have daily life without having to think about war.

I am tired, though. I am very tired of the MSM spending more time broadcasting the latest celebrity bull-spit than they spend following the stories of Chuck Ziegenfuss or JR Salzman or Joey Bozik or Eddie Wright. And I'm already tired of the bickering and bullcrap exhibited in the pre-2008 election jostling.

I agree with J-P's last line. I'd very much like for our guys and gals to kick total a$$, and then come home.

posted by Barb on February 24, 2007 10:50 PM

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Again, I am outside the norm.....for the normals. I don't feel guilty but then again I am not experiencing "weariness" with any groups other than the "usual suspects".........politicians, libs, left wingers, anti-war protesters, people who don't read past the headlines, people who won't read the headlines.....

posted by Maggie on February 24, 2007 10:58 PM

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My personal weariness regarding this war stems from being tired of figuring out things remembering I held a fairly strong lefty view until recently. Such a change in perspective was fairly draining especially after such a large change not long before that. And I'm tired of being frustrated with the methods i see in action which i don't agree with much. It's akin to me watching a 100m dash with the runner going around the block first. I want the US to win I'm just opinionated on how to do that. I am weary of the MSM. Actually I've been weary of the MSM for a very very long time.

But you know when you're tired, sick, depressed, old or whatever, when your son calls out to you because he's in need do you let your weariness rule over you and give up and ignore him?

No you keep going and do what has to be done and are reminded about what's good in the world.

No Ry the military does not leave policy to civilians. We vote one in a million for one leader over another. Those leaders and their staff do policy not us. We (at a 1 in millions rate) can change policy by deciding a different leader is better in 4 years upon which all policy is subject to changes not at all under our direction. As Churchill said (i'm paraphrasing) "democracy is the worst from of government except for all the others that have been tried."

posted by Trias on February 24, 2007 11:31 PM

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I'll sum it up:

War sucks.
Death sucks.
Seeing mothers, fathers, sons, daughters, wives crying over a flag draped coffin sucks.
Looking at pictures of 18 year olds who will never see 19 sucks.
Knowing you can't be there to help them carry the load sucks.
Trying to figure out what's going on and not getting the whole picture sucks.
Knowing that all of this sucks and you still believe we should do it because, while it all sucks, what you imagine happens next sucks more.
Knowing that tomorrow, our representative republic could decide to leave either or both fronts and leave hundreds of thousands of people to die (if not millions - some of who have become friends through organizations and internet) sucks.

It all sucks.

Tomorrow, here and there, we will wake up and do it again like an ugly groundhog day.

Sometimes I am angry, sometimes I am sad, sometimes I am energized. It is those ups and downs that make me weary. Still, most days I only feel resolute. I suck it all in and add it to that resolution, because we aren't done until the mission is done.

Still, it sucks.

posted by kat-missouri on February 25, 2007 3:08 AM

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I forgot, seeing pictures of two year olds torn apart by some suicide car bomber and knowing that their parents will never get an answer as to "why" said suicider decided the path to paradise and winning the war was through their little girl, sucks.

Being excited today about a project with some American Legion Riders, talking about future projects, someone said, "we can make this an annual". For a moment, the thought that this project would NEED to be annual, sucked.

I can go on with the "suck", but I need to suck it up because I have to go to bed so I can get up and meet with some American Legion guy and the mayor's rep in our little town Sunday to put together a project to support the troops.

posted by kat-missouri on February 25, 2007 3:23 AM

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Hence the term... "Embrace the suck."

posted by John of Argghhh! on February 25, 2007 8:46 AM

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Well-said, Kat... every word.

posted by FbL on February 25, 2007 10:29 AM

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wow.

seems like everybody here is taking things waaaay too seriously. too many Athenians.

as for me, i'm heading off to church, then a family function and a beer.

..and that's as deep as it gets.

sometimes laconic is good.

posted by MajMike on February 25, 2007 11:53 AM

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Looks like you have an attack of the tards. At least we know we wont be meeting the one that thinks they're a god.

posted by Trias on February 26, 2007 2:38 AM

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Ry, I think a big part of what is affecting you and I is that we AREN'T 'Normals'. Both of us WANT or wanted to serve; we have that 'sheepdog' mentality that was blogged about here lately. But due to the current rules, we can't. We are like a throughbred horse, blood and bred to race who was born with a flaw that keeps it chained down to a kiddie ride. We hear the post bugle and every instinct we possess wants to break out of the gate and RUN.

In another place and time your knees, my asthma would never had given a recruiter a pause (my gender on the other hand may have caused me to do a "Molly Pitcher").

posted by Karla (threadbndr) on February 26, 2007 1:36 PM

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� Dismissed, Soldier!

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aathat last shot kinda looked like Tra Cu??

posted by Old Fat Sailorr on February 24, 2007 12:11 PM

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Nope -- Phouc Vinh.

But that's what almost *every*where looked like during the dry season -- Vinh Long, Ca Mau, Vi Thanh, Chi Lang, Moc Hoa...

Not Soc Trang or Can Tho, though -- no bunkers in sight.

posted by BillT on February 24, 2007 2:40 PM

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Ca Mau, Now there was a bad place...

posted by Old Fat Sailor on February 24, 2007 4:25 PM

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Bill, what weapon is the squating guy on the berm carryin in the top picture. M79? Thompson? And what are they doing? Pulling up wires or planting things? That is really an odd looking activity....

Great pics though.

Can we puleeeze have the rest of the story now...?

posted by SangerM on February 24, 2007 5:46 PM

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Sanger

Birdwatching.
The chap with the binos has probably just spotted a black great horned lyre bird. which some have mistaken for a water buffalo. Due to their viscious temperment and propensity for unprovoked assaults, it was recommended that birders be well armed at such times.

Cheers

posted by J.M. Heinrichs on February 24, 2007 7:47 PM

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Sanger - Actually, the guy with the blooper *is* birdwatching. He's watching the shot-down Hubird settle into the mud...

He's also pulling security for the two erstwhile airmobility proponents who are up to their elbows in rice paddy slogging to the paddy dike ("Been there, done that, got the T-shirt, the mug and the plaque."). Don't try mud-slogging at home, kids -- leave it to us trained professionals...

posted by BillT on February 25, 2007 12:18 AM

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� Dismissed, Soldier!

*A term of art from the artillery. Harassment and Interdiction Fires.

Back in the day, when you could just kill people and break things without a note from a lawyer, they were pre-planned, but to the enemy, random, fires at known gathering points, road junctions, Main Supply Routes, assembly areas, etc - to keep the bad guy nervous that the world around him might start exploding at any minute.

Not really relevant to today's operating environment, right? But, it *is*

The UAVs we fly over Afghanistan and Pakistan looking for targets of opportunity are a form of H&I fires, if you really want to parse it finely. We just have better sensors and fire control now.

I call the post that because it's random things posted by me and people I've given posting privileges to. It's also an open trackback, so if (Don Surber uses it this way a lot) someone has a post they're proud of, but it really isn't either Castle kind of stuff, or topical to a particular post, I've basically given blanket permission to use that post for that purpose. Another term of art that might be appropriate is "Free Fire Zone".

� Secure this line!

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I love Carren too, but this isn't changing my vote. I'm sorry she is hurt. If I had the chance I would tell McCain "Good job, a$$hat!". But these stories shouldn't be part of presidential politics. I don't care that Obama smokes. I don't care that Hilary has fat ankles and would pay more attention to me in a bar than she would to any guy. I don't care that Mitt is a Mormon or that Rudi has ex-wives and gay friends. There is only one thing I care about.....Who is going to more closely reflect my views? Clinton? Obama? I don't think so.
So McCain stepped on his "crank" as you guys like to say.....oh well. We all do it at one time or another. If McCain has the nomination, he has my vote and I don't care if he tripped an old lady to get there.

posted by Maggie on February 23, 2007 8:55 AM

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Mr McCain is supposed to be my senator, but quit representing the people that voted him in the instant he won his seat. There's a reason he's not particularly popular with the Republican party in his home state. On a more personal basis my better half has had the misfortune to have to deal with his office professionally, and supports Carren's assesment of his character. I won't vote for him again. Ever.

posted by Pogue on February 23, 2007 9:58 AM

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Hey, when you get done with that vietnam story, can you post a link to the whole thing on the sidebar? I find it very interesting, but am not into reading things serially.

Thanks!

posted by Kevin on February 23, 2007 8:35 PM

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� Dismissed, Soldier!

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He's also survived by the guy he pulled out of that car. The Soldier's Medal is the one I get all warm and weepy about, when I think of such things. Not awarded for ordinary warspite, but for deciding to risk one's own life to save another's. The Good Samaritan ain't even in it.

Besides, looking at his pic, he reminds me of me: That is, a mostly-cheerful nerdy type. Dang!

P.S. Look at the movies of the Hindenburg fire and crash. You'll see the sailors running *toward* the flames.

posted by Justthisguy on February 26, 2007 9:16 PM

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One of the defining characteristics of sheepdogs, JTG. What they run towards, not what they run from.

posted by John of Argghhh! on February 26, 2007 9:20 PM

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� Dismissed, Soldier!

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Waaay to go Fuzz!

Instead of garnishing all the glory for itself, The Castle seems more like a fertile incubator of passionate ideas, whence bright ideas flow.

That by itself, is more meaningful than all the laurels that the Blog-World can confer.

posted by Boquisucio on February 23, 2007 8:27 AM

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In addition to the Valour-IT project, you should vote for Fuzzy because she is a really good blogger.

posted by Laurie on February 23, 2007 9:35 AM

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BZ to FBL, not only for being nominated for this award, but for being such a caring and dedicated soul. My vote's in.

posted by Damian on February 23, 2007 10:12 AM

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Good job FBL. You go gurl.

posted by jim b on February 23, 2007 12:41 PM

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The Fuzzy has my vote.

posted by Trias on February 23, 2007 2:05 PM

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And thanks to all who popped in to vote today. FuzzyBee's now leading the pack by ten votes!

posted by BillT on February 23, 2007 6:59 PM

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Wow...

Wow.

Did I mention, "Wow?"

Both the embarrassingly complimentary words and the stack of votes... I'm floored.

I thought I was just gonna have some fun and be competitive, maybe raise my blogging profile a touch... but it looks like I have a chance to actually win. Cool!

And I give up protesting the kinds of compliments flung my direction from certain quarters. ;) Just know that you embarrass the heck out of me!

But thank you so much for the votes. Win or lose, it looks like we're giving the big dog in the "U.S. Military Support" category a run for its money. Fun!

posted by FbL on February 23, 2007 8:36 PM

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And I give up protesting the kinds of compliments flung my direction from *certain quarters*.

Well, if you'd do a pole dance more often, you'd get *certain dollars*, instead...

*sauntering off, jinking merrily*

posted by BillT on February 23, 2007 10:36 PM

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You're losing it in your old age, Bill... Were-Kitten is the pole dancer; I do the belly dancing. :D

posted by FbL on February 24, 2007 8:25 AM

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Yup, I hate to admit it, but I *am* losing it.

Like that old saying goes, "I'm not as good as I once was, but I'm as good for a couple-three hours as I ever was."

posted by BillT on February 24, 2007 4:25 PM

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Dear SugarButtons,

While I am from Boston, I believe there is a saying in Missouri that applies here.......Show Me.

posted by Maggie on February 24, 2007 11:02 PM

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Ah, that's Our Little Maggie, as incorrigibly encourageable as always...

posted by BillT on February 25, 2007 12:28 AM

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� Dismissed, Soldier!

“One-Five, ready to copy your grid?”

“Affirm. Send it, Reed.”

He did. I quick-checked my tac-map; the parade was almost a klick south of the border.

“You went and got professional on me, Sir, and I see you’re orbiting. If you’ve got something, I’d appreciate a play-by-play.”

“Would you believe – fifty NVA, with flag, with tractor, with one-owe-six.”

“Geez, we’re being invaded…”

“Three-Four, One-Five, got me in sight?”

“Yep.”

“Honk it over and drag your skids in the weeds. Orient on me and you’ll blast past them on your right. Then break right and we’ll pretend we’re the Indians and they’re the settlers.” Having two Charlie-Model gunships suddenly appear at eye level would make them start to reconsider their inviolability, and I wanted them to make the first move, considering how close we were to the border. Didn’t need any REMF at Group screaming for my guts on a spit because I’d created an international incident…

The two gunships flashed past at 140 knots then broke right over them. The tractor driver bailed and the tractor lurched to a stop. Half the troops in the column ducked and the other half dodged sideways.

“Taking fire!" The troops who had ducked had done so to unsling their weapons and were now firing -- inaccurately -- at all three of us.

“Bust ‘em!” Three-Four and playmate did cyclic climbs to altitude followed by wingovers to roll into a rocket run.

“Full right suppression to cover the gunships – hit those idiots around the tractor!”

The troops who had dodged now had their weapons out but were confused about which of us to shoot – the gunships turning to dive on them, or the Huey actively firing on them. In the end, it didn’t really matter. And the end came in seconds. Ten-pound warheads and multiple minigun bursts are very effective at eliminating a linear target...

Three-Four slowed after rolling into a right turn and approached the kill zone.

“Three-Four, what the %$#@! are you doing hovering down there?”

“I’ve got three guys trying to unlimber the one-owe-six. I don’t believe this – they’re trying to use it as an antiaircraft gun!”

Sure enough, I watched as Three-Four slowly slid past, keeping just ahead of the muzzle as the impromptu flak crew sighted and *traverse-traverse-traverse-thunk* and hit the stops. They picked up the trails, swung the gun ninety degrees and *traverse-traverse-traverse-thunk* and hit the stops. They picked up the trails again, swung the gun another ninety degrees and *traverse-traverse-traverse-thunk* and hit the stops. Three-Four’s wingman stopped the farce with a burst from his miniguns.

I dropped to six feet and flew slowly past, looking for movement -- if we found any wounded, we’d pull them aboard and evacuate them to the hospital at Binh Thuy. We found none. But as I flew past the Ford tractor, I saw a stencil on the engine cover.

In English.

“A gift to the [bullet hole]ple of the Democr[bullet hole]c Republic of Vietnam from the Americ[bullet hole]riends Service Commi[bullet hole].”

Great, I thought. Some peacenik group is shipping prime movers to the enemy and we can’t even get our own government to send us toilet paper without wood chips in it…

To be continued…

� Secure this line!

---

Dang! And to think that at one time, back in the seventies, I would run my two-stroke street bike up to twice the speed limit when late for the Atlanta Friends Meeting, so that I could shut it off and coast the last two blocks with the clutch lever pulled so as not to make noise.

There was an ex-F-100D driver in that Meeting, who had some stories.

posted by Justthisguy on February 23, 2007 2:12 AM

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JTG - Back in the day, the AFSC wrapped itself in the Quaker mantle but acted more like a Santeria gang (I refuse to call *that* lot a congregation). The AFSC liked bloodshed and sorrow, so long as it was US military blood that was shed and US military families sorrowing. The %$#@ers even delivered phony "The President Regrets" telegrams to families of guys serving in RVN or showed up on their doorsteps -- in military uniform -- to announce the "deaths" of their sons and castigate them for having participated in an "immoral" war.

They aren't quite as vicious these days -- yet -- but they still like to see US casualties. They *claim* they're faith-driven, but they're as agenda-driven as all the rest of the moonbats.

And if I haven't made myself clear on the matter, I do *not* like the AFSC...

posted by BillT on February 23, 2007 6:18 AM

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Oh yeah I could picture the AFSC gang baying at the moon, with chants to Eleguá Cayombé.

posted by Boquisucio on February 23, 2007 8:02 AM

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A GIFT FROM AMERICA?
um. YEAH. i got your "GIFT"... right HERE (flips bird)

damn.

posted by AFSister on February 23, 2007 9:11 AM

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Ab initio...

Cetera desunt!!

posted by MajMike on February 23, 2007 12:07 PM

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your writing style is like a good Latin sentence, with the action verb at the end.

posted by MajMike on February 23, 2007 12:11 PM

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your writing style is like a good Latin sentence, with the action verb at the end.

Gratias tibi -- cetera desunt et prenuncii sunt.

posted by BillT on February 23, 2007 7:24 PM

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� Dismissed, Soldier!

*A term of art from the artillery. Harassment and Interdiction Fires.

Back in the day, when you could just kill people and break things without a note from a lawyer, they were pre-planned, but to the enemy, random, fires at known gathering points, road junctions, Main Supply Routes, assembly areas, etc - to keep the bad guy nervous that the world around him might start exploding at any minute.

Not really relevant to today's operating environment, right? But, it *is*

The UAVs we fly over Afghanistan and Pakistan looking for targets of opportunity are a form of H&I fires, if you really want to parse it finely. We just have better sensors and fire control now.

I call the post that because it's random things posted by me and people I've given posting privileges to. It's also an open trackback, so if (Don Surber uses it this way a lot) someone has a post they're proud of, but it really isn't either Castle kind of stuff, or topical to a particular post, I've basically given blanket permission to use that post for that purpose. Another term of art that might be appropriate is "Free Fire Zone".

� Secure this line!

---

oh my goodness, when that border opened and the Trabbies started flowing west, it was a regular parade of gypsy clown cars...

mixed in amongst them were also some truly decrepit (as only an East German could be) Wartburgs (aka: Fart-burgs, for the disgusting smell of the exhaust)...

ahh, good times, good times.

posted by MajMike on February 22, 2007 8:13 AM

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Ooops. My bad.

Well, better the computer flushing than me being tossed in the microwave and then the garbage disposal. That hurts.

posted by ry on February 22, 2007 9:09 AM

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John: I hate to say it, but you watching a video of someone firing a rifle is probably more valuable than Murdoc actually firing a rifle.

A true expert I'm not.

But I play one on the internets.

Thanks for the links!

posted by Murdoc on February 22, 2007 9:52 AM

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Sadly, I've heard an audio recording of an ATF Tech Branchie saying that a belt fed upper is an NFA item because it has Machine Gun Style Components. Whether they'll be trying to enforce this is anyone's guess.

posted by Ryan Gill on February 22, 2007 10:41 AM

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I think the ATF's starting position is that anything is an NFA weapon. Since you can buy a semiauto M1919A4/A6 you've got to wonder. Why don't we just eliminate the SAW altogether and go with the M-240. H3ll, why don't we eliminate the 5.56 altogether.

posted by Pogue on February 22, 2007 12:32 PM

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We drove a Toyota Corolla and the Trabant drivers thought it was a minivan.

Ours pedaled faster too. We could get up to eighty mph on the right lane of the Autobahn.

And then you heard the two toned Doppler and knew that you were about to be passed by a Mercedes
and an AMG with the AMG flashing its lights.

How many loads of wash to the liter did the Trabant get?

posted by Cricket on February 22, 2007 3:00 PM

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� Dismissed, Soldier!

---

Darn, we haven't had the chance to send you guys 3 dozen emails about this.

posted by marvin on February 22, 2007 1:58 PM

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I remember the posting where this was found. The title was something like "The Devil's Foyer". At that time the EOD tech said it was a cluster munition and got very excited when he saw the soldier carrying it - the "drop that and we all die" kind of excited.

Based on my memory of that entry it's about grapefruit sized, just in case that aids in any way.

You might be able to Google up Yon's original entry and do an end run around the swarm.

Oh, and I repeat: he's now a verb:
Yon'd - to inflict a DDOS attack on yourself by asking a question a significant portion of the net finds interesting.

posted by KCSteve on February 22, 2007 2:46 PM

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Cluster munition, eh? Hmmmm.

posted by John of Argghhh! on February 22, 2007 2:55 PM

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I found that post, Steve. Good call. That said - this thing doesn't look like any cluster munition I'm familiar with - it's too large for those.

Not saying it *isn't* a sub-munition for something, it just doesn't look like the ones I know or have references for. But then, my references for China, India, and others aren't all that complete, either.

posted by John of Argghhh! on February 22, 2007 2:59 PM

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It looks to me like something that's been pulled apart and put back together.

posted by Trias on February 22, 2007 4:14 PM

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i'm one of the guilties who was slamming on the Yon site this morning from FOX, and i came away with the impression that this puppy is a wee bit bigger than the riot control grenades you pointed to.

i was then thinking along the lines of that RAW thingie, but couldn't put my finger on the picture i had in my head. i'm definitely leaning towards that Brunswick since you posted that pic.

posted by MajMike on February 22, 2007 4:45 PM

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Gawd. Look at the real complicated assembly for launching that thing. I can see why they moved to the underslung grenade set up. Why'd they move away from the simple system they used with the M-1?

posted by ry on February 22, 2007 4:46 PM

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BTW, MajMike - Owen has been responding to you with Greek history lessons down in the "300" post.

posted by John of Argghhh! on February 22, 2007 4:57 PM

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Hence, Ry, one of several reasons why they didn't proceed with the system.

That said, the M16 flash suppressor is sized to fit standard NATO rifle grenades, but we choose not to use them (hence no sight for same), preferring the 40mm grenade launchers instead.

posted by John of Argghhh! on February 22, 2007 5:01 PM

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Comrades,

Except for the color, I'd say it was a 12lb spherical case, missing the borman fuse. If the color is actually vertigris, then I'd set it down real gentle and not let anyone use it for a sad iron.

Could also be the top of a flag pole.....

Just sayin.......

Respects,

posted by Gwedd on February 22, 2007 5:53 PM

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Spherical case is actually the *first* thing that popped into my head, too, AW1 Tim.

Flagpole topper, though. That one didn't make it!

posted by John of Argghhh! on February 22, 2007 6:32 PM

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Guys, that fuse looks like a Borman variation I saw when I found a live CSA spherical case round in the museum where my wife was director. Did they find a 12 pounder Napoleon about as well?
(BTW the AF EOD types that "disarmed" it didn't believe the bursting charge would still work...heh watching them trying to stomp out the fire in the hay meadow was quite amusing, I assumed a Gunner's Mate's smirk of superiority you might know)

posted by Old Fat Sailor on February 22, 2007 7:22 PM

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John, et al,

Lookit hereL

http://www.iglou.com/btreasure/blown1.jpg

This is a blown borman fuse. Note the square hole in the center, and the outer ring, then compare to the image of the whatziss.

That site also has some similar images of bormans, case and shell, etc.

makes ya go hmmmmmm.......

Respects,

posted by Gwedd on February 22, 2007 8:29 PM

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That green-glowing thing in the first pic?

PRECIOUSSSS, MY PRECIOUUSSS!!!

posted by Justthisguy on February 22, 2007 9:53 PM

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Sorta looks like one of the APERS balls pictured in the middle of this page: here.

Or as my EOD friends told me - you should not be playing with that...

posted by Eagle1 on February 23, 2007 9:35 AM

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No, Eagle, those are all too small, and have vanes to make them spin, etc.

I'm leaning towards something South African, but I'm having trouble finding good sources.

Off to the Combat Arms Research Library at the Fort to see what their Jane's collection might have to offer.

posted by John of Argghhh! on February 23, 2007 9:49 AM

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Not being in a combat arms branch (ANC Officer), I don't know a lot about weaponry, but it seems to be to be too big to throw easily as it seems to be made of metal.
This leads to the line of thought that it either needs to be placed or launched.
If it is to be launched, where's the launcher? And also it doesn't seem too aerodynamic, I have a feeling it wouldn't be to accurate or fly too far.
If it's to be placed (like a claymore, or an antitank mine) why isn't it flat? Aren't most of those things directional?

It looks like something that Boris Baddenoff would light and throw at Rocky and Bullwinkle.

Do you suppose it's just a mock up to confuse the US troops, or even more subtly, to undermine pulbic morale in the US by giving the impression that they (Ali Baba) have weapons that we haven't even seen before?

VEry interesting.

posted by lucasm on February 23, 2007 11:58 AM

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Not being in a combat arms branch (ANC Officer), I don't know a lot about weaponry, but it seems to be to be too big to throw easily as it seems to be made of metal.
This leads to the line of thought that it either needs to be placed or launched.
If it is to be launched, where's the launcher? And also it doesn't seem too aerodynamic, I have a feeling it wouldn't be to accurate or fly too far.
If it's to be placed (like a claymore, or an antitank mine) why isn't it flat? Aren't most of those things directional?

It looks like something that Boris Baddenoff would light and throw at Rocky and Bullwinkle.

Do you suppose it's just a mock up to confuse the US troops, or even more subtly, to undermine pulbic morale in the US by giving the impression that they (Ali Baba) have weapons that we haven't even seen before?

VEry interesting.

posted by lucasm on February 23, 2007 11:58 AM

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It's pretty obvious that it's a Jedi Training Remote...

posted by IllTemperedCur on February 23, 2007 2:35 PM

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� Dismissed, Soldier!

� Secure this line!

---

much as i am loathe to comment on a pic with a naked dude in it... (well, i guess it's okay cuz he's obviously a tanker too)

that's a mighty fine panzer there.

posted by MajMike on February 22, 2007 8:17 AM

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Actually, we used to take Aussie Showers in Hawaii, on the Big Island... I have to say there is really something to be said for standing buck naked in the middlw of an open field and just not giving a rat's butt who see's you. And of course, it felt good... But we didn't have the hardware (no pun, NO PUN) to hang the shower on, so we used GP Medium tent poles 100mph taped as a fraem-up. I've got a pic like this, one, but no cool tanks so I won't send it. Plus, I'm sure Arkin would focus on the fact we were in Hawaii as the real benefit. Yeah, at +/-10K feet ASL surrounded by a hundred miles of lava rock and two volcanos, one of which erupted a month after we left there... Yeah, paradise....

Which was quite the opposite of one winter exercise in FRG where we all got to smelling so bad I just had to make the team wash more than their feet and change their socks (that done every day, twice a day). We put a poncho down on top of frozen earth we'd scraped a foot of snow from, we boiled water in a steel water can (fire built around it) and we all stripped and washed, one at a time. It was around 30-40 degrees that day, and nice 'cause the wind wasn't blowing. And shaved, and what have you, and as cold as it was--man, did everyone feel better with clean clothes, etc. Of course we had to air out the vehicle and I made everyone lay their sleeping bags out, etc.. It had been a long 4-5 days, and we had another 3-5 to go.

Of course, being the Team Leader, I had to go first, to show the two Southern boys and the New York City guy nothin' would freeze off or crawl back up inside to get away from the cold.... S'ok with me, I got the hotest water. But I have to say, steel pots were made for that, and after the kevlar came out it got harder to do that kind of thing.

posted by SangerM on February 22, 2007 8:34 AM

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Scanner. Must....find scanner....send pictures. Bwahahahaha

posted by BloodSpite on February 22, 2007 8:42 AM

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take the cover off the coax banana box on the turret floor, and wedge that sucker up under the heater exhaust pipe (just fwd of the right sponson at the back of the right front fender), that makes the perfect shelf upon which to rest a steel pot of precious water for the hot making, with which the bathing is that much more the nicey-nice....

ahhhhh....

...and now i guess i've got to find some way to digitize the pix of when we blew up the Doha motor pool. sigh...

posted by MajMike on February 22, 2007 8:47 AM

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Hey MajMike... You got me remembering.. we used to heat C's on the manifold of the Jeep (M151) while cruising down the road. Was cool, until a can of beans and meatballs exploded under the hood. Cripes! Aside from scaring the *%(87 out of all of us (as we're going down the strasse), there was small dent/bulge in the hood where the can popped, and there beans and sauce all over the engine compartment. And it stank for weeks, and it was baked on.

Oh, and we used to use the gun tube (with cover on of course to store cans of soda, until one of those frooze and popped and then it all ran down into the breech when it thawed, etc... Yuch...

posted by SangerM on February 22, 2007 12:07 PM

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tell me about it.

that's how i caught the Louisiana Guard tankers who were using the gun tube cooler, but actually threw some crushed ice down there too.

i was pulling OC duty evaluating these cajuns up at Peason Ridge (north of Fort Polk), and when they never had their tubes level and scanning i initially thought they had some turret problems with elevating.. then they had the electrical short.

ice melt had dripped past the breech block and down thru the bananas and run thru the wiring harness.

no ammo on board, no fire, but that smell stays with me...

posted by MajMike on February 22, 2007 12:30 PM

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I think I need to dig up my pics of TF Hawk in Albania...my tent in Mudville.

posted by Heartless Libertarian on February 22, 2007 1:16 PM

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Hey Heartless,

Which one were you in Albania? Bet my mud pictures are betterrn' yours!

posted by Instapilot on February 22, 2007 2:00 PM

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So, cough 'em up, flyboy.

posted by John of Argghhh! on February 22, 2007 2:07 PM

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They're at home...need to scan 'em somehow...will work on it.

posted by Instapilot on February 22, 2007 2:35 PM

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Well, like I told Bloodspite - if you trust the Postal Service, send 'em to me and I'll scan 'em.

posted by John of Argghhh! on February 22, 2007 2:49 PM

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The first thing that came to my mind ...

Whose a$$ is THAT???!!!!

posted by fdcol63 on February 22, 2007 8:25 PM

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� Dismissed, Soldier!

---

OFS!

posted by SangerM on February 22, 2007 8:36 AM

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if you'll remember, this same kind of "offering a statement in defense that is not in keeping with the stipulations" thingie is what caused some early hiccups in the Lynndie England court martial...

i'm not getting excited. i say we should let the "t"s be crossed and the "i"s be dotted ever so carefully, lest we inadvertantly stumble down the road and cause a future invocation of double jeopardy.

posted by MajMike on February 22, 2007 8:53 AM

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I think the govt should re-file all the charges, included those dropped for the stip.

Then the govt should request a change of venue - to Iraq, where all the witnesses are.

posted by marvin on February 22, 2007 9:48 AM

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There's a difference, but not much, between Watada and this guy. At least Watada didn't run away. At least the other guy eventually accepted that what he did was a breach of faith more than a 'valiant moral stand'.

posted by ry on February 22, 2007 4:37 PM

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Actually, I thinkthe situation is fairly simple. Watada freely entered into a negotiation with the government regarding the stipulated facts in return for dropping some of the charges. He then reneged on the deal, and thereby broke his word.

I would reccharge his with everything and add a charge of conduct unbecoming for violating his sworn agreement.

He ought to get a fair court, and then lock his sorry ass up in Leavenworth for the maximum. His actions bring disrespect to every honest man and woman who has taken the oath and lived (and died) according to that oath.

Marine6 - Sends

posted by Marine6 on February 23, 2007 8:58 AM

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btw, we just got new into my unit one each 1LT coming off Active, who coincidently happens to have just come from stateside Stryker land.

i'll be grilling him all next weekend for any poop he may have on the topic.

posted by MajMike on February 23, 2007 9:44 AM

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I would like to see something along these lines:
Me holding a pic of Lt. Watada and standing outside the courtroom, waiting for him to arrive.
When he does, and sees me, I will spit on his picture. Symbolic, free speech and no assault.
Would that be called spitting by proxy?

One can dream...

posted by Cricket on February 23, 2007 12:28 PM

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Not only recharge him with ALL of the original charges but also let the stipulation stand and admit those items into court as fact. 2 strikes right there. Third one gets him good time at Leavenworth. Sounds good to me.

I've also heard the same things as your source about the civilian defense attorney. Sneaky and underhanded were two of the adjectives used to describe him. Not the two most colorful ones but they were used.

posted by HomefrontSix on February 23, 2007 2:44 PM

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I've heard just the opposite. Lt. Watada understood his stipulations, it was the prosecution who made the mistake. It that is true than there may not be another trial.

posted by Hawk on February 23, 2007 7:04 PM

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� Dismissed, Soldier!

---

Well, this happened the day of(or the day after) you went weed killing, which was a week or so before you got told you had a price on your head, Han Solo. So when do you shoot Greedo?
(Sounds of a zombie being shoved into the woodchipper.)

posted by ry on February 22, 2007 1:36 AM

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Heh. Don't forget the *other* events...

posted by BillT on February 22, 2007 5:51 AM

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Yaaaeee! It's another iteration of the adventures of Hubert and the caped cruzader

posted by Boquisucio on February 22, 2007 7:10 AM

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I'm betting on old girlie being his wife or sister, you ticked him even more by gnabbing her, and now you've got half the NVA thinking "It's BMX time"

posted by BloodSpite on February 22, 2007 8:46 AM

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i'm still trying to calculate BMNT and EENT, MR/MS and get the %Illum nailed down...

posted by MajMike on February 22, 2007 8:58 AM

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I have a very strong suspicion I know exactly why the bounty was set, but I don't want to ruin the story.

Let's just say that you could run into similar problems in certain areas of Kentucky these days... ;)

posted by Casey Tompkins on February 22, 2007 12:50 PM

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I wonder, did Col. Trinh Vo also wore an evil-looking "Fu-Manchú" above his creased lips?

posted by Boquisucio on February 22, 2007 2:04 PM

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The pot .....er *plot* thickens!

posted by Neffi on February 22, 2007 3:43 PM

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Oh, golly-gee-whiz-darn and gosh-all-hemlock, I sho' nuff did telegraph that punch, huh? Maybe I should just do a couple of limericks for tomorrow, instead of the last *three* installments, then. In fact, I think I'll just do that. It'll save a lot of wear and tear on the keyboard.

R-i-i-i-i-ght.

You armchair -- uhhh -- swivelchair detectives ain't getting off *that* easily...

posted by BillT on February 22, 2007 4:51 PM

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Sorry, sensi. This miserable worm humbly begs you to continue your enthralling tale.

No, really, Bill. You've told some great stories here in the Castle, to the point where I would seriously suggest you put this stuff together and publish. Your work reminds me of Martin Caidin at his best, or Jerry Pournelle channeling Larry Niven.

Or would that be Niven channeling Pournelle? You capture the former's humor with the latter's solid story-telling.

Either way, please don't stop. :)

posted by Casey Tompkins on February 23, 2007 2:45 AM

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� Dismissed, Soldier!

*A term of art from the artillery. Harassment and Interdiction Fires.

Back in the day, when you could just kill people and break things without a note from a lawyer, they were pre-planned, but to the enemy, random, fires at known gathering points, road junctions, Main Supply Routes, assembly areas, etc - to keep the bad guy nervous that the world around him might start exploding at any minute.

Not really relevant to today's operating environment, right? But, it *is*

The UAVs we fly over Afghanistan and Pakistan looking for targets of opportunity are a form of H&I fires, if you really want to parse it finely. We just have better sensors and fire control now.

I call the post that because it's random things posted by me and people I've given posting privileges to. It's also an open trackback, so if (Don Surber uses it this way a lot) someone has a post they're proud of, but it really isn't either Castle kind of stuff, or topical to a particular post, I've basically given blanket permission to use that post for that purpose. Another term of art that might be appropriate is "Free Fire Zone".
[I got nothin' today. But I did set it up for y'all. Can I have a stale Cheeto?]

� Secure this line!

---

please call me right away have NEWS ON HOW TO HELP BUILDING 18 WALTER REED.
Patti Patton-Bader
soldiersangels@gmail.com

posted by patti on February 21, 2007 11:21 AM

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Love all the Navy stories. They are in charge! The favorite Naval Consort is chomping at the bit for a "....gut-bustin', mother-lovin' Navy war!".

posted by Maggie on February 21, 2007 11:33 AM

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The favorite Naval Consort is chomping at the bit for a "....gut-bustin', mother-lovin' Navy war!".

Well, first you have to find some bad guys with boats.

I've heard tell the Seychelle Islanders can be pretty fierce when they're riled...

posted by BillT on February 21, 2007 5:53 PM

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Avast ye Swabbies! Beware of what ye wish for. It may come true.

posted by Boquisucio on February 21, 2007 6:55 PM

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� Dismissed, Soldier!

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I'm available to push papers.

posted by kat-missouri on February 21, 2007 4:02 PM

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And if you want a PhD with experience cleaning up institutional disaster areas, you know where to find me. Hell, I'd do just about anything to help fix this.

posted by caltechgirl on February 21, 2007 4:12 PM

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i got dibsies on being XO (i could do it until summer '08 before mandatory retirement)..

posted by MajMike on February 21, 2007 5:55 PM

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Need a civilian liaison/administrator of some sort? It's not like I have a career tying me down... ;)

posted by FbL on February 21, 2007 8:22 PM

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What other positions are available? Perhaps.......Candystripper...........umm Candystriper?

posted by Maggie on February 21, 2007 9:24 PM

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If you need Navy Senior Enlisted leadership, call me. I'll be glad to stand in as 1SG.

posted by Ernie on February 22, 2007 4:39 AM

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accountant with some medical experience, military family. No payroll cred, but willing to learn about anything. Can retire from current job with one month notice.

posted by Karla (threadbndr) on February 23, 2007 3:29 PM

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� Dismissed, Soldier!

---

Those obscene amenities at Graf and The Hole definitely put the meaning of *cold* into the Cold War... especially the winter of '79. A unit rotating through for gunnery qual had an incident with the diesel-dripper which resulted in a fire- so the heaters were pulled from the rooms.
Ach du Lieber, war es *KALT*!

posted by Neffi on February 21, 2007 10:18 AM

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The ones in Graf hadn't changed by '89-'91 either. 1RCHA spent part of every fall there for a gun camp. I still remember one guy that had too much to drink at the mess, deciding that chasing a wild boar away from the backdoor of the hut with a bayonet was a good thing.
It was a long walk to anywhere other than the kit store. I still have the Matterhorns I bought there in '89. I still miss the Green Goose chain of Bar/nightclubs as well, there was one not far from the base, although the Nurnberg one definitely had more eye candy around. I probably caused some permament liver damage during my three years in Germany. "Sigh" Good times.

posted by Pat on February 21, 2007 10:48 AM

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we would do them back to back, so it was all one big "Grafenfels" deployment...

we actually got permission to road march all our little beasties down the highway from Graf and into the maneuver box. the trail vehicle for our squadron cleared the RP only 3 minutes behind schedule...

posted by MajMike on February 21, 2007 10:57 AM

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Graf!
I have two winter and one summer at Graf under my belt! I preferred the winter!
Unforgettable how we got those M60A1's on those little German flat cars!Fun train ride down from Fulda though.
I remember being at Camp Normandy for at least one of those times.
I was an FM radio operator, radio mechanic, and drove a big ol M577.
Proud to have served!
Roy Patterson
San Jose, Ca
14th Armored Cav '66-69'
Bravo 3

posted by Roy Patterson on February 21, 2007 1:36 PM

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yeah, and Fulda bahnhof was always such a joy to load out of...

unless it was the month of April when the universe shuts down.

or if it was a Friday.

or during daylight hours.

(Fulda 89-90, Bad Kissingen 90-91, Wildflecken 92,93)

GO CAV!

posted by MajMike on February 21, 2007 5:59 PM

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You guys are killin' me! I must be tired 'cause I am laughing still... Ahh, the memories!!!

I spent 76-79 as a radar guy in 2/81 in Erlangen. For each of those years, I spent no less than 6 months away from the Kassern. We were either at the border (Camp Gates being my fav! and Selb--talk about eye candy), or at Graf for tank gunnery or gunnery support for some other tank unit, or at Hohenfels for ARTEPS and ARTEP aggressor, or on some cold-a$$ winter reforger or winter bridge crossing exercise at Hassfurt (I actually got to ride on a combat enginer pontoon boat/bridge piece, and then cross on a pontoon bridge...), or some other thing. There were months we'd come back on Friday, clean and restock, and then leave on Monday. Oh, and of course, there were the the post-3 day weekend alerts at 0200, and we'd be moved out to Tennelohe for a day or two... (and that says nothing of the Ammo dump guard, range guard, gate guard, and every other manner of fun stuff....

And yeah, I remember the narrow flatbeds, we had to get the m60s on there so they only overhung by about 4-5 inches on each side...

And Normandy is where I spent a lot of time. In fact, I still have the zippo lighter I had engraved by the old guy at the little PX there (he used to carve in the zippos using leather carving tools).. And my favorite fast food is STILL microwaved hamburgers you could get and the autovending machines all over graf (you know, the burgers where the buns got all hard when you nucked em)...

And I can say with pride I NEVER once went to the stab and jab. (Of course it was off limits every time I ever went to Graf, but hey, it kept me pure...)

And the only bad thing that ever happened there was when one of our guys turned a 45 on another guy in the next building over and got a couple of bystanders too. Talk about a hectic hour after that.

And of course, those stupid squalid rooms had to be GI'd before we left. I wa advance party and clean up when I took that pic. We had just come down from the border and we're waiting on the company to show up.

Oh, and that multi-tasking guy... He took me flying one time down to Austin in a kiowa, and on the way back he decided to chase axis deer all over the top of one of those sawed off hills between Hood and Austin. I barely kept my lunch, but it was fun. I recall his air medal ribbon had the number 8, but that seems high in retrospect.. I'm second-guessing myself, so I'm no longer sure. Either way, he sure was fun to fly with!

V/R

posted by SangerM on February 21, 2007 7:39 PM

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Don't forget the pigs. Our HHC mess section, in an act of complete lunacy, used to dump their leftovers behind one of the barracks at Graf. Every night, a herd of porkers would serenade at all hours.

One of our city slicker aviators decided to play a game with the herd one night. A couple of us woke up when we realized that the serenade was a little louder than normal. There was the city slicker, standing in an open door way, chucking MRE crackers into the herd.

When we, in a very cordial manner, asked him as to the purpose of his endeavors, he replied that he was trying to get one of the 'little ones' into the hootch. He thought it would be funny.

We expressed our disagreement and used 100mph tape to prevent further transgressions in judgement.

We did cut him loose next morning.

posted by Blackhawk on February 21, 2007 8:33 PM

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Ah, yes ....... Graf and Hohenfels memories! LOL At least these Spartan quarters were much better than Tent City at Camp Kasserine! LOL Loved watching live fire at the helicopter range next door, though.

Remember once on a winter Graf when I was driving for the S-3, we had set up a GP medium for staff, with those dim light bulbs strung up inside. I was supposed to pull radio watch at 0200 or something like that, and was zipped up in my sleeping bag on a cot. Musta been several inches of snow on the ground. I woke up and felt something hit my feet, thinking somebody had come in to wake me up to go on watch. I unzipped the sleeping bad and look outside, and saw one of those big Graf warthogs with huge tusks rooting around the cot next to me. Scared the shite out of me! LOL

One of my most vivid memories of the Stab and Jab was watching some poor little Fraulein trying to dance on stage, but it looked like an awkward version of PT instead. LOL

Spent way too much time and money at The Green Goose in Nurnberg ...... but jeez, what fun!

posted by fdcol63 on February 21, 2007 8:57 PM

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Camp Aachen or Camp Cheb, for only the finest in accomodations. and the Italian Ice Cream man would come around in his truck and make the most magnificent bowl of spaghetti ice with toppings...

..and then south to Parsberg railhead, where it was always icy and/or wet. I would always forego wearing my tanker boots on Parsberg railhead days, and would don steel toe mechanic boots.

My safety brief there would begin with the following two sentences: "I'm wearing steel boot boots today, so that if anyone falls off the top of their vehicle or gets electrocuted, I can come over and stomp your skull in immediately. Trust me that there is less paperwork involved in me defending myself at Court Martial than there would be for me to have to fill out the accident report.."

posted by MajMike on February 22, 2007 9:04 AM

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� Dismissed, Soldier!

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agreed. agreed. agreed...

and not to be contrarian (just for the sake of contrariness), BUT....

haven't we been trying to close out Walter Reed (due to obsolescence of the physical plant) and open a newer, more modern facility near by?

and hasn't every single round of BRAC stymied every efforts to make old run down places go away, so we could focus efforts on supporting and building up the places best suited to our current (and future) condition?

and hasn't it been local political considerations that cause our elected representatives to micro-manage each and every single buildings and grounds decision, effectively ham-stringing the garrison leadership?

so i'm willing to give the military leaders some slack and mild commendation for doing the best they can with the antiquated facilities (with a constrained O&M budget); while simultaneously promising to take a dump in the coffee cups of the elected legislators who micro-managed us into this particular corner.

just sayin'

posted by MajMike on February 21, 2007 7:57 AM

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MM - I don't care. Taking care of soldiers is taking care of soldiers, and a lot of what's goofed there isn't related to dollars for facilities.

It's related to caring for the farking soldier.

And *that* is not the fault of anyone except the the President, the Secretarys, the JCS, the Service Chiefs, and their associated minions.

Period.

There isn't a politician (other than the Courtney Massengale variety) to blame for much of what's wrong here.

It's... *US*.

posted by John of Argghhh! on February 21, 2007 8:05 AM

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I have to agree 100% John
And with your friend Hunter as well

If the 1SG did absolutely nothing, toast him. Toast until dawn then turn him over and toast him some more. I'll bring the spit.

You do not ever stop supporting your boys, no matter what condition they or you are in, nor no matter how much pressure the officer corps places on you (not saying thats the case, just saying it does happen), threats with careers et etc the 1SG is the number uno line man for the defense of a soldiers welfare and moral, period, end of discussion.

Many years ago I had an awesome 1SG who taught me many things about being an NCO. The NCO creed is long. His golden rule was simple. The 4 I's

"Never do anything illegal, illicit, insensitive or immoral and you'll be a good NCO."

I'm a frequent flyer of the VA here in Fayetteville. My biggest complaint is treating the symptoms not the disease. I can freely walk out with any number of drugs of any sort without the faintest clue as to whats actually wrong with me. Fortunately I managed to obtain one of the few good doctors here.

That being said it's interesting to watch the World War II guys look at the newest generation of Vets, clean shaved and pink faced sit down beside them.

Last week on the elevator a older gentlemen helped me with my crutches and hit my floor button.

"What war?" says he.

"Gulf War Episode I, Haiti, Bosnia and a long list of places no ones heard of any more. You?" says I.

He grinned under his white hair. "Navy Aviation Crew member. A long list of places barely read about and maybe see in movies. World War II."

Old and New meet in a Elevator in a VA Hospital. The Old accepts the new, with a smile and a handshake.

The problem? The medical service hasn't changed. Sure the walls get painted, the floors get changed, but the basics are still the basic's.

I've been a Category 2 since my discharge from the military. With the next round of budget cuts possible, my VA rep is telling I may drop to a 3 or even a 4.

Enough is a freaking 'nuff.

How can I help, and what do you need me to do?

I'm game for a medical insurrection. I haven't been part of one of those since 1986 and I got to attend a Senate Sub Committee hearing that my father testified at on Navy Medical Malpractice, courtesy of then SecNav John Lehman and then TN Senator Jim Sasser.

Having lived through the 8 years of court, legal drama and tooth and nail victory, I can tell you the beast does not change or give in easily. But I'll give it a shot and may still have some good contacts and know how the game is played, unfortunately.

posted by BloodSpite on February 21, 2007 8:46 AM

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I also remembered hearing that WR was to be ramped down and merged into Bethesda ... but I agree with John that it is no excuse for the current situation. Cutting corners for any reason at the expense of the troops is not appropriate. Doing so at the expense of WOUNDED troops is despicable.

posted by Barb on February 21, 2007 10:32 AM

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There are lots of good things going on at WRAMC, my anger obscures that fact.

There is just a common thread among the stories that indicates the leadership there is not doing their jobs properly.

And add to that my annoyance with other issues I've run into with the non-deployed/deployable parts of the services in the last two years, and I get a little... frustrated.

posted by John of Argghhh! on February 21, 2007 10:39 AM

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Leadership, leadership, leadership (at all levels). They definitely don't have enough money/staff, but they could've done a hell of a lot better than they did (most of the problems are just simply administrative/bureaucratic. And THAT is inexcusable.

posted by FbL on February 21, 2007 10:50 AM

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i'm agreeing here!!

posted by MajMike on February 21, 2007 11:01 AM

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Chuck has a terrific post about his thoughts on this, including taking on blame for what he calls having "left my brothers behind" (a lesson in leadership for WR).

READ IT!

http://tcoverride.blogspot.com/2007/02/blame-game.html

posted by FbL on February 21, 2007 11:07 AM

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I am going to post something on this tomorrow. I am on the other end: care giver.

However, having just helped someone with a process problem, I can tell you that a major malfunction is the 1st Sergeant and his minions (up or down the chain of command) are not long term "employees" who have a lot of knowledge about the system. Those are very few and far between. usually, these people down at that level are just passing through. Probably there less than a year and probably gets about the same kind of training without a chance to practice it and make it happen with a mentor.

On the admin side, it's not like being a tanker or artillery or even a rifleman. At least as a tanker you get trained on a field where you practice shooting targets before you actually go into combat. You are drilled until you know exactly how to operate your machine, even in the heat of battle. Not so the paper pusher. He isn't practicing jack. He gets some squashed together seminars that are supposed to inform him or her how to manage this great morass and all the "check boxes".

And, as much as you hate going through the system and its paperwork, desperately keeping your eye on the moment you can get out of the machinery, they are too. Believe me, unless you are truly dedicated to the "mission", the people they are sticking in there to over see it are equally as desperate to escape it.

I was helping someone walk through the process. There were changes so I had to read the new documents and reference the websites regarding processing to holding units, etc, etc, etc. The sergeant who had handed the family the paperwork didn't know anything and could barely explain the process to the family. Then he left out some steps or told them it was a "done deal", so when they were getting shuffled through the beauracracy, they couldn't figure out why they weren't in the place they thought they should be (ie, processed out and on their way to outpatient care).

When they tried to find the Sergeant, guess where he was? Gone.

When they tried to talk to the "case manager" at the hospital, their documents were already in transit to the "case manager" that would handle their case from the "holding unit" process forward. They had to wait a week before they were contacted by the new case manager. A week when they didn't know what to do or where to go and no one could tell them what was supposed to be happening because the hospital worker was not part of the "processing to medical holding unit" process and had no idea how it worked.

But, you kow how I helped them out? I had computer access. I had experience with tri-state and military clinics in San Diego as a care giver. I read the websites and the pamphlets. I figured out who they needed to contact in order to find out who their case manager was. That's all it took, but no one could help them inside the "machinery" because they did not know what to do, were gone, were not part of the "other process" and simply did not want to go outside of their lines.

Still, that was only the beginning. After they got to the "holding unit", it started all over again. The only saving grace was a really dedicated case manager that was overwhelmed with the number of people she had to manage yet still managed to take the time to talk to these folks like humans and explain what was going on.

I told my friends to make sure they wrote a glowing letter about this lady because you don't meet those kind of people often in this kind of system.

I have more to say on the matter later.

posted by kat-missouri on February 21, 2007 2:16 PM

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" ...and a lot of what's goofed there isn't related to dollars for facilities.

It's related to caring for the farking soldier."

Amen.

It's a matter of the people doing the jobs caring. Or not. Period.

posted by MaryAnn on February 21, 2007 3:10 PM

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I disagree a little bit that it isn't dollars. The infrastructure, and I'm talking people as well as buildings, costs a lot. Dedication by service members only goes so far. The 'I've got three kids, one is about to start college, one needs braces, and the youngest one nees glasses, oh, and one's in the oven.' situation comes up. They leave for more money, less stress, and more time with the clu.

The fix for the un-navigable paperwork sea is either a professional or volunteer permanent staff that does this all the dang time. Proll'y a mix of both---able to ramp up to meet demand and keep Congress happy about cost.

Facilities in some instances are less than what they should be. Repairs cost money. People to do the repairs cost money.

Money isn't the cure all, but it's a start. It's not something anyone should be able to use as a get out of jail free card. But righteous anger doesn't put steak on the plate.

Since what I thought of for WRAMC is now kaput(they're on it) I'm having to think different. WRAMC is the current target, while other stuff continues to be similar without notice.
So I propose:
a) Since repairing facilities is a problem, you can only keep so many 'facilities managers' on staff, we organize local groups and businesses to tackle that. It's like cleaning a house. If you've neglected it for a while it seems like an impossible job. Once you've got it right it's a whole lot easier to keep up. Secondary: money is left for other things---like fixing med gear, psych staff, and managers for the paperwork sea.
b) We don't think of this as a once off. We need long term charity org to be there for things like paperwork and entropy enduced repairs that go out of budget for a given facility(like a Veteran's home).

I've already talked to SA's Holly. Need to follow up on that. We need help here people. Gov't will do what it does. We, those who actually give a ----, need to fill in the cracks where gov't fails as it is fated to always do. Some people can do more than others. But it takes a coordinated initial effort to make anything happen. Let's pull together and make something happen. Nashing teeth and calling for heads leads nowhere.
respectfully,
gollum

posted by ry on February 21, 2007 7:54 PM

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Points taken, Ry.

posted by MaryAnn on February 22, 2007 3:28 AM

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� Dismissed, Soldier!

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it never hurts to stop by the chaplain's office before going out and after coming back in...

it also never hurts to be going out in an M1A1.

posted by MajMike on February 21, 2007 8:11 AM

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I would like permission to post this at my church. It sounds like he wouldn't mind, but I would rather know for sure.
Thanks for posting the letter.

posted by Russ on February 21, 2007 9:09 AM

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Russ or anyone. You have my permission to pass this along. Of course my son will die as with most of these guys he hates any kind of limelight. However, in these days of discouragement it is good to be encouraged! So pass it along!
Mark

posted by Mark on February 21, 2007 9:52 AM

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Prayers keep going out everyday.

posted by kat-missouri on February 21, 2007 11:48 AM

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Thank you for that.

As you might imagine (those who know), the folks I've been engaged with since last year tend to not like it when I say things like: I believe Winston Churchill was meant by God to be the 20th Century's Horatius at the Bridge. Or that I believe God delivered copies of King George's speech to G. Washington on 1 Jan 1776, the last day before the Continental Army would have disbanded, at the hearing of which, the soldiers burnt "the speech and then raised the new red and white striped flag recently authorized by Congress on the liberty pole at Prospect Hill in Cambridge." Or that God put Joshua Chamberlain at Little Round Top. And so on....

In fact, I imagine a lot of people get kind of antsy (kind of all 'iffy') when I say stuff like that. We're ok in the USA with such things, but not too much, really, and not in public so much, eh? But it's certainly not ok (even provincial and embarrassing) to many furiously and righteously agnostic Europeans.

S'ok.

Just a couple of weeks ago, though, at the end of an interesting on-line post, a very spiritual, amazingly articulate co-student of mine wrote "God is not an American." I wrote to him to about it and he responded with something that is just absolutely typical of him:

"I too believe that God is in the warp and woof of our country's governance. I wrote that last stark unsettling sentence to jolt both left and right to the fact that his agenda is beyond our comprehension; just like when he used Cyrus in Isaiah 45:1. Nevertheless, he has informed our lives with his word and his promises. Informed by his words and promises we can by faith take action. And yet we are still uncertain - that is what makes up half the equation of faith. The other whole (half) is the trustworthiness of faith's object."

I was, as always, awed by the clarity of his thinking and his ability to touch truth. And, after reading CPT Brooks' msg, all I can think of is the hundreds of trillions of times in the past 230+ years that Americans have been "just" missed or "just" helped by the smallest of margins, so that not only could people like Churchill and Lincoln fulfill their appointed tasks, but so could we all, as "informed by His words and promises" we in faith take action.

I believe. I have no proof except what I know in my heart, but for me that is enough.

Again, thank you for the post.

V/R
SangerM

posted by SangerM on February 21, 2007 7:11 PM

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� Dismissed, Soldier!

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(Snort)
I think I went to college with your door gunner's son.

posted by ry on February 21, 2007 12:43 AM

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did ze pilotz lizten to Valkyrie muzik whilst executing Herbst Nebel?

posted by MajMike on February 21, 2007 8:27 AM

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"did ze pilotz lizten to Valkyrie muzik whilst executing Herbst Nebel?"

Nope, but the rat-a-tat from AK47s and other small arms, kept us entertained.
I hated defoliation missions, low, slow and a big fat target wasn't my idea fun. Seldom did the spray ship escape without taking fire. One incident was funny after the fact, for sure. We had been taking turns in this one AO over the course of a week, each time taking fire. Copperhead 36, in his cape and Cmodel gunship, decides to tag along on one of the missions to "protect" the spray ship. In the midst of the run V17 calls, "taking fire". C36, forgetting how low and slow the spray ship was punches off a pair, under him. We don't know if he got any bad guys, but we do know V17 gained altitude without pulling pitch and sustained a lot of damage to the ass end of his ship.

posted by V29 on February 21, 2007 10:17 AM

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And don't forget the time Baby-San shot *himself* down...

posted by BillT on February 21, 2007 4:28 PM

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Ok... I was laughing out loud from the "WEED Comment... Now, I can't type for $h*t from the "shot himself down" comment.... Sometimes the punch line is the best... and the V29 anecdote too.

Ahhhhh, that's the Army I remember....

But c'mon with the story, jeez, you're almost as bad as Prince Valiant and Brenda Starr!

posted by SangerM on February 21, 2007 6:06 PM

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*Muttering Death* ?!! Oh Chief, yer killing me here! The F4U jocks from WWII dunno wether to shirt or go blind....
...and c'mon with Chapter the Fourth already, sheesh!

posted by Neffi on February 21, 2007 8:30 PM

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...jeez, you're almost as bad as Prince Valiant and Brenda Starr!
I thought Prince Valiant was a *good* guy. And my eyes may be *gaw*-juss, but they don't go all twinky-winky, like Mlle. Starr's do...

The F4U jocks from WWII dunno wether to shirt or go blind....
Hah! Dad flew F4Us off Guadalcanal and Okie -- VMF 215's squadron patch *was* a Whistling Death riding a Corsair.
Whistling Death, Muttering Death -- gotta give 'em points for they being *poetic* li'l bassetts...

posted by BillT on February 21, 2007 10:42 PM

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� Dismissed, Soldier!

*A term of art from the artillery. Harassment and Interdiction Fires.

Back in the day, when you could just kill people and break things without a note from a lawyer, they were pre-planned, but to the enemy, random, fires at known gathering points, road junctions, Main Supply Routes, assembly areas, etc - to keep the bad guy nervous that the world around him might start exploding at any minute.

Not really relevant to today's operating environment, right? But, it *is*

The UAVs we fly over Afghanistan and Pakistan looking for targets of opportunity are a form of H&I fires, if you really want to parse it finely. We just have better sensors and fire control now.

I call the post that because it's random things posted by me and people I've given posting privileges to. It's also an open trackback, so if (Don Surber uses it this way a lot) someone has a post they're proud of, but it really isn't either Castle kind of stuff, or topical to a particular post, I've basically given blanket permission to use that post for that purpose. Another term of art that might be appropriate is "Free Fire Zone".

� Secure this line!

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I am not familiar with particular case of the Wiccan chaplain and would not comment on it even if I were. The Washington Post article, however, doesn't give an overall picture of how endorsement for the chaplaincy works.

In general … every chaplain represents a specific faith group. The endorsing agency certifies to the Army that the endorsed chaplain is qualified for perform religious ministry in accordance with that denomination’s own polity. When a chaplain loses his/her endorsement, he/she can no longer function as a chaplain. Period. The government has no authority to declare someone competent to minister when their own church says that they are not.

There are procedures for changing endorsers, but the government cannot force an endorser to give a chaplain time to make the switch. Most endorsers will assist a chaplain in changing denominations, but I imagine all endorsers have some conditions that would motivate them to pull an endorsement immediately. Chaplains who want to change endorsers should keep both the gaining agency and the losing agency informed. AR 165-1 covers all of this.

There are procedures for groups to become recognized as endorsers, but that is miles above my pay grade, somewhere up at DoD level, and I have no idea how it works.

posted by Mitch Lewis on February 20, 2007 7:54 AM

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And Mitch, being the other Leavenworth milblogger I'm aware of, and a military Chaplain to boot, speaks with some authority here.

Just to let ya know.

(This would be distinct from Venomous Kate and SWWBO, who are bloggers, but not really milbloggers per se).

posted by John of Argghhh! on February 20, 2007 8:04 AM

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Never thought of the day would come in which The Admiral of The Moat Fleet would slink back into the leeching lurker's swamp whence he came. Alas, life comes at you in cycles.

Good work there, Ry. You’re certainly earning your keep in this here Castle. On Hugo “El Diablo” Chavez: From our self-centered and narcissistic perspective, Venezuela is arming herself for the sole purpose of challenging “The Mighty Gringo Goon of The North”. But having worked closely with the Colombian military, I will say that this shopping spree is a more immediate and actionable concern to the folks in Bogotá, and not in Washington.

Nary a week goes by, in which there is a cross border clash between Colombia and Venezuela. They have become so common, that they are hardly mentioned by the press in both countries. But their military brasses know better. All this new hardware in the hands of Chavez, will primarily serve to destabilize their next-door neighbors in Colombia. As the Venezuelans continue to provide comfort and succor to leftist evil-doers in the region.

Instead of having U.S. shipping interdicted in The Mississippi Delta, a more immediate concern certainly will be a well armed and aggressive leftist take-over of Latin America.

posted by Boquisucio on February 20, 2007 9:29 AM

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Uncle Jimbo's a poster child alright! LOL

posted by Maggie on February 20, 2007 12:13 PM

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Chavez and his Bolivarism. What a dork and a wacked out approach to things(bolivarism and what Simon Bolivar sought to create seem to share only one thing: the name.). They were trying to justify the rise of said on NPR today by saying that cronyism caused privitization to fail---so of course the right move is to nationalize--- and that it's only a matter of the quality of leadership over the enterprise in question. Grrrrrrrrrrr.

I hadn't thought of the interdiction aspect. Opps. Goes to show how deep a thinker I am. Of course if they tried they'd be in real trouble.

ANd we do miss you Boq. The Moat Monsters now take a swipe at me when I polish the Portculis since they don't get to play with the Sand Pebbles.
----
And looks like my little idea of helping out at Walter Reed just went still borne. I may have to contact some people to see if we can't just turn this into a different charity stream for hard luck Veteran's homes and such instead. Lot's of these places need help after a decade of getting told 'next year when there's money in the budget.' What do you guys think? Or should I just let it go since there's enough light being shined in the corners now?

posted by ry on February 20, 2007 9:38 PM

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� Dismissed, Soldier!

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I would like to sit down with them over lunch too. I would also like to invite the General's son, Mark who was a hard charging Ranger I always thought highly of.

Odom was a brilliant cold warrior. Since 9/11 he has made a number of surprising statements which suggest that he is typical of the philosophical chasm between the Army of the Cold War and the one we have today.

I used to respect the guy. When I knew the General he was a patriot, insightful, and astute. Something has happened to this man over the years which suggests to me there is more at play than meets the eye.

Many folks simply look at his rank and his time as NSA chief and consider him credible. But in the last few years he seems to have become delusional.

posted by NOTR on February 20, 2007 9:52 AM

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Dementia is a respector of no person, irrespective of rank, position, background and grooming. It's sad that we don't recognize when it's time for us to step down and remain quiet. It often blights a long, clearly patriotic period of service. ML

posted by Mike Lehnherr on February 20, 2007 10:51 AM

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Posted on this subject to.

If you read the entire translation, Juburi says several times that they cannot pledge allegiance to a guy with no name and a state without a name and a bunch of other nameless ministers. Particularly an Islamic state.

This has multiple implications. In Arab culture, your tribal name is very important. It indicates whether you are a member of the "ruling" tribe or ruling tribe's ruling family. It indicates your descendence from Mohammed (ie, do you have some additional authority to be speaking on or in context to religion or to be a member of the "ruling" authority as a descendent). Recall this is why there are black and white turbans (denoting from whence you descend)

In short, he implied that "Baghdadi" was a nameless, fatherless cur that could not proclaim or be in authority over an "Islamic" state.

He challenged "Omar Baghdadi" on more than just his bad leadership that is resulting in deaths and resistance to the resistance. He challenged him at the core level of all things that hold Arabs together and makes them fight against the "common enemy".

Me against my brother.
Me and my brother against my cousin.
Me, my brother and cousin against an outsider.

He said Omar Baghdadi was outside of the core group that they would fight with and outside the core group they should protect.

All the other things he said were simply supporting indictments to his "outsider" pronouncement.

posted by kat-missouri on February 20, 2007 11:51 AM

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Hey, this is actually great timing. We now have a commander on site who can take this opening for co-option. And the New Republic was reporting that exactly that is kinda what's going on.

And I thought the Hudson Institute was a Teddy Kennedy mouthpiece? I could be wrong. I've been that a lot lately.

posted by ry on February 20, 2007 9:48 PM

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This has been on of those days, where "Hmmmm..." seems like it was in the middle of every sentence today. We can disagree and yet not be disagreeable. Let's hope we can keep that standard for the duration of this war. We will all need it for this long debate. I am talking about the one that will last for the duration of this war. Well, how long is that? Do we measure it in weeks, months, years, decades, centuries or millennia? I ask them, "Do you know where you are talking about in history? How long have they been fighting?" We are looking for black and white answers, with no gradients or grey. This is historically the Biblical Garden of Eden, The land between the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers. The best way to see the future is to study the past. In their view, we decided when to start and they'll decide when it is finished.

One last thing, Mike Lehnherr and NOTR, you both labeled Gen. Odom with the term "dilusional or dementia". You may disagree, fine, but be careful of the labels. Your use of such labels tells me more about you and not him.

Respectfully, "Grumpy"

posted by Grumpy on February 21, 2007 2:02 AM

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Grumpy - I understand your comment, and will only say this. What I really meant was give the old man a break - he served long and well, and the time simply comes when we need to step down. My apologies to anyone I offended with what was perceived as a personal attack. Cheers, ML

posted by Mike Lehnherr on February 21, 2007 9:33 AM

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� Dismissed, Soldier!

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On Mould Remediation... I hope that for the welfare of our soldiers, the low-bidding contractor is just not spraying Sodium Hypochlorite (a.k.a. Clorox®), and calling it a day as it’s usually done. All bleach does is make ugly dank mould, look pretty. This does not kill the mould, its infesting spores, nor its toxins that sickens us mortals. In time, the Mould’s ugly color will come back, even if it was invisible for a while.

To do the job right, it is imperative to first KILL the buggers with Sporicidin®; a product whose active ingredient is the same as the one used in Cepacol®. If it kills fungus in the back of one’s throat, it surely kill any fungus growing on top of dry-wall. This is no plug for that company, it’s just that it is a subject dear to my beautiful bride, who directly conducted the scientific trials on the matter, and published the results THUSLY.

posted by Boquisucio on February 20, 2007 9:54 AM

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� Dismissed, Soldier!

*VOLAR - Volunteer Army. A term from the 80's used by those of us who were pre-VOLAR to refer to the "obscene amenities" used to recruit the stupid, shiftless, and unemployable into the United States Army of Myrmidons.

� Secure this line!

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Hmmm .... I musta been stuck in some kind of transitional VOLAR Twighlight Zone, 'cause that looks a lot like my billets in the early '80's.

Evidently, we didn't get the "obscene amenities". But it sure beat the SAND. LOL

posted by fdcol63 on February 20, 2007 12:43 PM

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Nah, Frank. We had VOLAR furniture, anyway. Those white lockers and stuff...

Not that I would know, living off-post and all, over in Oberasbach.

posted by John of Argghhh! on February 20, 2007 1:09 PM

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Yeah - that's obscene, all right. But amenities would not be the proper noun...

posted by Barb on February 20, 2007 3:23 PM

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Heyyyyy....

That's my volar basic training barracks at Dix (but ours was neater), and the only difference between that and what I lived with in Geramny was... uummm... no spiffy stands or footlockers, AND the heavier duty gray metal bunks and thicker mattresses held together with that cool riot tool otherwise known as a bunk connector.

Yeah, I got one better than that... At Hohenfels, which probably doesn't count, 'cause we were glad to be inside for change...

posted by SangerM on February 20, 2007 6:13 PM

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Oh, yeah... thanks!! I didn't see this:

: used to recruit the stupid, shiftless, and unemployable into the United States Army of Myrmidons.

Of course! It was the blue, red, & yellow desks, chairs, and wall lockers that did it for me. That and the 8 man rooms. woo-oo!

stupid? yeah, I joined the Army

shiftless? well I never worked any shift, never had a job

unemployable? likely, didn't know squat, not even which foot was the hay foot and which foot was the straw foot (city boy, din't no thar wuz a differnse....)

posted by SangerM on February 20, 2007 9:38 PM

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A CHAIR!!!! Cripes, how'd you guys get a chair!!!!

posted by Rod Thorsen on February 20, 2007 11:57 PM

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� Dismissed, Soldier!

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Ever thought of running yourself?

Hewitt's recruiting...

..and, no, I'm not being facetious (well, not too much).

Sometimes when you want something fixed, you have to fix it yourself. Alas, "politician" and "child molester" seem to evoke the same visceral response. I don't think that's fair (to politicians) so maybe the tipping point we're approaching in the more conservative strains of the political spectrum is more outsiders giving public service a shot. Could be...or not...admittedly, it's a lot more thankless than being a veteran, eh?

I'd be willing to do it, but I'm not smart enough, not to mention too bloody lazy.

posted by Instapilot on February 20, 2007 7:21 AM

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Dusty - I had a *life*. I'm a two-time divorcee.

I don't even wanna think about running.

Which of course is part of the problem. We've made it so painful to run, most people won't put themselves through it.

Not that it should be easy, given the power and the stakes.

But since we can't run on the merits of policy, because the news cycle and the attention span of the electorate won't allow it, we get the politics of personal destruction (not that it was any different, really, back in the day - it just wasn't as in your face because of the ubiquity of the media) - elections as entertainment.

And we bloggers have both improved and added our own form of damage to the process.

posted by John of Argghhh! on February 20, 2007 7:48 AM

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I like to think that as Bloggers our contributions outweigh the damage.

Am I right? Who knows. In 20 years when someone develops a hologram entry in the Digital Encyclopedia Britannica and mentions bloggers will they say Menace, Myth or Mass Movement?

One of the good things we do is bring our experience to the scene, which most (not all) politicians have zero experience in the things that they pass verdict on (Like the famous Alaska Rep who referred to the Internet as "a bunch of pipes with little internets in it".....*cringe*)

We also break it down in to basic laymans terms with out huge .35 cent words to say the same thing "The situation sucks"

People understand that, and accept it. Heck a big chunk like it.

But the best thing I think we do, without sounding like a audio tape of Siddartha, is we force people to ask questions.

Like:
Why are my tax dollars going to people who are spending time not accomplishing passage of something that would have accomplished nothing and may have sent a mixed message anyway?

It may be a few years before we see a result, and the public beast is a fickle one, moving rapidly only when it affects their inner bubble of comfort (why's my cable TV out...oh Boston was attacked with a nuclear weapon) and the rest of the time it's merely the squeaky wheels getting the grease so to speak.

But I wouldn't get down hearted yet. I think all in all we, as bloggers, have done a good thing overall. Even if I do only have 60 people a day reading my gibberish, thats 60 people who think "You know..this guy makes sense.." and those 60 people will pass those idea's and views on to someone else.

And thats something to think about out in the grand scheme of things.

posted by BloodSpite on February 20, 2007 8:09 AM

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Bloodspite - well, the wikipedia entry would be bifurcated. The Left would say they were a mass movement... and that we of the Right were a menace.

posted by John of Argghhh! on February 20, 2007 8:18 AM

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There's a difference between what's going on now, and the Bosnia thing that makes all the difference in the world, and makes seemingly opposite positions tenable and rational- timing. The Bosnia debate occurred BEFORE we went in, at the appropriate time for debate, and this is happening now, right in the middle of it. A highly inappropriate time if there ever was.

Otherwise, I concur about the political class...

posted by douglas on February 21, 2007 1:31 AM

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� Dismissed, Soldier!

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hot damn, we got us a story going now....

gimme more.

posted by MajMike on February 20, 2007 8:32 AM

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Hmmm... Wonder if Mama-San there was the same viper that infested your shower stall.

posted by Boquisucio on February 20, 2007 8:52 AM

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Brilliant, Bill. I can't wait for the next installment.

posted by Damian on February 20, 2007 9:31 AM

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Not bad ...

Cheers

posted by J.M. Heinrichs on February 20, 2007 12:26 PM

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"Not bad..." he says. Tankers! *sheesh*

Good tale, Bill. 'Please sir, may I have another?' - er - more...

[lookee there... we have a never-been-in-the-military person cranking one off in a branch-related snark. Ahhhh, the power of the Castle... -the Armorer]

posted by Barb on February 20, 2007 2:53 PM

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If I coulda got a export/import license for those bikes..ole Bill T mighta been Comrade Bill. RLO's tsk tsk, the trouble they get into, shameful. You'll notice when Bill grew up they made him a Warrant Officer! :-)

posted by V29 on February 20, 2007 5:40 PM

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RLO's tsk tsk, the trouble they get into, shameful.
Yeah, but don't forget who *taught* me.
And I *still* have my suspicions as to who it was that planted the sign saying "Nguy Hiem! Dai-Uy Tuttle Live Here" outside my tent...

Barb - 'Fess up -- it was the reference to the M1911, wasn't it?

posted by BillT on February 20, 2007 6:07 PM

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I. Am. Offended. I Am Not A "tanker", I Am A ZIPPERHEAD!!!!

Cheers

posted by J.M. Heinrichs on February 20, 2007 9:39 PM

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I. am. offended. too!

that zipperhead ain't a tanker!!!

posted by MajMike on February 21, 2007 8:13 AM

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Aren't we being a bit disingenous John... taking advantage of your southron cousins.

Zipperhead - armoured tank soldier, derived from their use of "zip up" to close hatches when under fire

From here (see Military Nicknames).

posted by John of Argghhh! on February 21, 2007 9:02 AM

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Tankers rule,grunts drool....nanner nanner nanner.

Great story!

posted by Jerry on February 21, 2007 9:52 AM

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Actually, "zipperhead" in the Canadian Army pre-dates the Vietnam War. And properly used, it is a nickname for a Strat.

Cheers

posted by J.M. Heinrichs on February 21, 2007 3:53 PM

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So, Bill, was she good-lookin'?

posted by Justthisguy on February 22, 2007 4:36 PM

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So, Bill, was she good-lookin'?

Late-twenties / early-thirties, hair chopped short, *dark* almond-shaped eyes, the whole been-rode-hard-and-put-away-wet look, a bit of mud fetchingly smeared across her pert li'l nose. And smelled a lot like Secaucus at low tide.

Ummm, I never really noticed...

posted by BillT on February 22, 2007 5:16 PM

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Yer just writin' that 'cause you think the Luddite Wife might be reading this. As is widely known, Vietnamese wimmin are famous for both good-lookingness and toughmindedness, just like the Mississippian wimmin, of whom my late Mom is one.

I'll allow that you were more attracted to the ones who weren't trying to kill you.

posted by Justthisguy on February 22, 2007 10:28 PM

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� Dismissed, Soldier!

*A term of art from the artillery. Harassment and Interdiction Fires.

Back in the day, when you could just kill people and break things without a note from a lawyer, they were pre-planned, but to the enemy, random, fires at known gathering points, road junctions, Main Supply Routes, assembly areas, etc - to keep the bad guy nervous that the world around him might start exploding at any minute.

Not really relevant to today's operating environment, right? But, it *is*

The UAVs we fly over Afghanistan and Pakistan looking for targets of opportunity are a form of H&I fires, if you really want to parse it finely. We just have better sensors and fire control now.

I call the post that because it's random things posted by me and people I've given posting privileges to. It's also an open trackback, so if (Don Surber uses it this way a lot) someone has a post they're proud of, but it really isn't either Castle kind of stuff, or topical to a particular post, I've basically given blanket permission to use that post for that purpose. Another term of art that might be appropriate is "Free Fire Zone".

� Secure this line!

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As the Armorer and I discussed - interesting photo of MG Weightman on Americablog's link. And, no, general officers may NOT determine what their uniform is - that is reserved for Chiefs of Services, only. ML

posted by Mike Lehnherr on February 19, 2007 10:34 AM

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As Mike weighs in with a breezy, esoteric comment that will have most people scratching their heads and going, "WTF?"

posted by John of Argghhh! on February 19, 2007 10:41 AM

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Yeah, I noticed the photo. It's from the WaPo story, but it has been altered--it's been lightened so that you can clearly see the empty eye socket. Interesting...

posted by FbL on February 19, 2007 10:44 AM

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Which isn't the photo, nor the aspect of the photo, that Mike was asking about - but an interesting observation anyway, Fuzzy.

posted by John of Argghhh! on February 19, 2007 11:19 AM

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Oops! Read too fast.

posted by FbL on February 19, 2007 11:51 AM

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So, is this holding facility at Walter Reed one of those "obscene amenities"?

I don't want to be confused since I always think of "obscene" as "over the top disgusting". I think this about covers it, right?

Obscene amenities at walter reed.

Where was Arkin on this story?

posted by kat-missouri on February 19, 2007 1:28 PM

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As Mike weighs in with a breezy, esoteric comment that will have most people scratching their heads and going, "WTF?"

Yeah, I think I'm one of that category. What's the 'interesting' tidbit of the photo of the general? What'd he do that he wasn't supposed to do with his uniform? posted by ry on February 19, 2007 4:05 PM

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And how do they keep getting pictures of me without my ballcap on? I never leave the house without it, it's my version of AmericanExpress.

posted by ry on February 19, 2007 4:08 PM

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Well, Ry, it has to do with being a "General" officer.

Let's see if anybody picks up on that.

posted by John of Argghhh! on February 19, 2007 4:52 PM

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Dude, my eyesight only corrects to 20-30, on good days. I can't see what's on his epaulettes(sp? Considering that it's me, more than likely).

Other than that, I can only think we're supposed to think of the 4 grades of general(Lt, Brigadier, Major, General, with the not seen in some time General of the Armies(5 star), do I have that right?)

posted by ry on February 19, 2007 6:11 PM

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ANd what do you have against hard copy and throwing a few nickels RAND's way, huh, huh, huh?
Not all of us are unpacking packrats, yaknow. (SOunds of gollum being stuffed in the microwave and then the garbage disposal.)

posted by ry on February 19, 2007 6:15 PM

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Insignia on the lapels are wrong?

posted by Instapilot on February 19, 2007 7:40 PM

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The fact that there are *any* insignia other than the "US" is wrong.

General officers are... generalists. Not specialists... so to speak.

There might be some obscure thing that applies to the special staff types, but last I checked, Generals had their own branch, that of generals, and didn't wear branch insignia.

But... the uniforms have been changing a lot these last few years.

posted by John of Argghhh! on February 19, 2007 10:06 PM

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� Dismissed, Soldier!

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..and, yes, i did giggle mercilessly...

posted by MajMike on February 19, 2007 10:41 AM

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I've been unable to find what on this site what this missile relates to. I refuse to believe that this info was just randomly placed. It can't be that mostly wooden thing with the real nice rifle scope.

posted by Rod Thorsen on February 19, 2007 1:51 PM

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Thanks, John, I didn't realize it was a standalone post. Sorry for responding this way, my outgoing e-mail stopped working since my last reinstall of XP, using both outlook and thunderbird. I'll be some months more before I'll try again due to activation limits.

Regards

posted by Rod Thorsen on February 19, 2007 2:13 PM

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� Dismissed, Soldier!

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damn.

it's never good when the S2 wants to see you.

posted by MajMike on February 19, 2007 8:14 AM

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C'mon, c'mon!! Don't do that!! Where's the rest!!!! eeerrrrrhhhhh!

(p.s., it's been about a hundred years since I thought about a "don't steal me chain" or had to fumble with keys in the dark or bust one of those useless brass locks off with ball peen.... I had a guy working for me that guarenteed he could bust one off in one hit every time or he'd buy the beer. He never bought the beer and we never had to remove a flat jeep tire from its rim while that fellow was in the platoon. --You remember that? Maybe not... flat side of the mattock beat into the joint between the tire and rim, one brave soul with foot on the pointy end, holding it down, another guy with a 10lb sledge, and at least 3 good whacks before the tire came loose from the rim... And that was just breaking the seal. Another 10 minutes fighting it off the rim, even with soapy water. Stupid useless no account inner tubes!!!)

posted by SangerM on February 19, 2007 8:39 AM

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Very wicked of you to string us along, Bill.
*tsk tsk*

Looking forward to finding out what you did, and how many bicycles you were worth after you did it again ;-)

posted by Barb on February 19, 2007 8:46 AM

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Trust you to leave it hanging.

posted by Trias on February 19, 2007 9:18 AM

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I'm guessing it had to do with the Enraged Water Buffalo incident.

posted by bad cat robot on February 19, 2007 11:45 AM

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Just gonna leave us hangin'? NUMBAH TEN!

posted by Bill Faith on February 19, 2007 3:17 PM

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Curiousity is killing me, even if it might trod on a sore never(got the privy plack already manufactured, it's even got a spot left blank for what ultimately causes my demise).

Did you suffer from the RIF after Vietnam, Chief? I've always gotten the impression you were a HS flier, but frocked to captian to come home and not be a commissioned officer? Dang. You must really love the Army, Chief. I've run into at least half a dozen people who HATE the Army because they got 'downsized'---some after GW and others Vietnam.

posted by ry on February 19, 2007 3:58 PM

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Gotta give you credit for this one:

“So I can go do it some more…”

But it's still not nice to make us wait to find out if you did. :)

posted by Fallen Angel on February 19, 2007 5:23 PM

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Why are you all clamoring like this? This is just what he wants. SugarButtons is a tease and you are just encouraging him.

posted by Maggie on February 19, 2007 6:48 PM

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Sugar-buttons or no, I'm looking forward to seeing where this leads. Even if it is a helo story. *duck*

posted by lex on February 19, 2007 8:20 PM

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I'm guessing it had to do with the Enraged Water Buffalo incident.
Never met her. Or the other Senator from NY, either.

But it's still not nice to make us wait to find out if you did.
Thank you, ma'am. But if George Lucas can do it, I can, too. Just not as well. Or as lucratively...

Ry - No RIF. I was a Reservist on Extended Active Duty. I took a Warrant to fly in the Guard -- if I'd stayed a captain, they would have stuck me in an Honest John outfit...

Trust you to leave it hanging.
Heh. Ask Barb or BCR about the 27" zipper.

SugarButtons is a tease and you are just encouraging him.
That from the Princess -- who needs absolutely *no* encouragement...

Soooooo, what did I do, did I do it again and did I get to keep my Vulture patch (and head...)? The answers to these questions and many more -- coming soon to a blog near you!

posted by BillT on February 19, 2007 8:36 PM

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"Five hundred friggin’ *bicycles*?!?"

heheh....can't wait for part II.

posted by Montieth (LJ) on February 19, 2007 9:02 PM

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How much would you pay for the rest of the story?$19.99? $29.99? But wait! There's more... not available in any store!
heh- come on Chief- give it up!

posted by Neffi on February 19, 2007 9:08 PM

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*This* enraged water buffalo, SugarButtons. How could you forget?

posted by bad cat robot on February 19, 2007 9:35 PM

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*on pins and needles*

posted by FbL on February 19, 2007 9:44 PM

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OK... 500 bicycles... which translates to how many Hanoi Hookers?

posted by WereKitten on February 19, 2007 9:44 PM

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*Stuck in an Honest John outfit...*

Aside from the badly aligned nomenclature in this case... I agree whole-heartedly.

Nothing more boring (and career-risky for no upside) than the big rocket units.

Hell, *I'd* have sold my soul for wings if that was the only way to escape flaming telephone poles.

Even if it meant I'd have to duck the other variety of same.

posted by John of Argghhh! on February 19, 2007 10:11 PM

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SugarButtons is a tease and you are just encouraging him.
That from the Princess -- who needs absolutely *no* encouragement...

No, but it's always welcome!

posted by Maggie on February 20, 2007 9:08 AM

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� Dismissed, Soldier!

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So I wonder how stop the war types can back such a move consciously?

*tsk*

Ry, the majority of the STW types don't even *like* the troops. Their sole criterion is, "If it makes Bush look bad, then it's a good thing."

posted by BillT on February 19, 2007 5:57 AM

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Bill beat me to it - there is potentially a subgroup of the STW types who don't have it in for the President, although I remain skeptical on that point. The bulk, however, just want to take an axe to anything they can if the President will be damaged by it. They will sacrifice anything, including (and maybe especially) the troops.

posted by Barb on February 19, 2007 9:47 AM

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My bad.;)

Yes, what we right side of the aisle people, and I was one of them back then, did during the Clinton Admin to balance the budget hurt the military and the warfighter. We were wrong. I wish to repent for that action. But Hail Mary's and Our Fathers aren't the type of penance this requires.

Screw what the STW types want. It's still immoral. The rest of the country needs to hear and see, by historical example, what the action will cause. Funding needs to stay ramped up for a good couple of years after everyone comes home.

posted by ry on February 19, 2007 3:52 PM

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I’ll add one more thing to the STW types or the “the slow bleed planners” – they need to divert the money that is going into the war effort to support their vote buying social programs. It's simple effective and greedy.

posted by Ledger on February 19, 2007 11:38 PM

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� Dismissed, Soldier!

*A term of art from the artillery. Harassment and Interdiction Fires.

Back in the day, when you could just kill people and break things without a note from a lawyer, they were pre-planned, but to the enemy, random, fires at known gathering points, road junctions, Main Supply Routes, assembly areas, etc - to keep the bad guy nervous that the world around him might start exploding at any minute.

Not really relevant to today's operating environment, right? But, it *is*

The UAVs we fly over Afghanistan and Pakistan looking for targets of opportunity are a form of H&I fires, if you really want to parse it finely. We just have better sensors and fire control now.

I call the post that because it's random things posted by me and people I've given posting privileges to. It's also an open trackback, so if (Don Surber uses it this way a lot) someone has a post they're proud of, but it really isn't either Castle kind of stuff, or topical to a particular post, I've basically given blanket permission to use that post for that purpose. Another term of art that might be appropriate is "Free Fire Zone".

� Secure this line!

---

OK, I read the Walter Reed article. What are we supposed to do? I am a follower, not a leader. I don't think outside the box. You're in charge here. You've explained the problem. Now find us solutions.

posted by Maggie on February 18, 2007 10:07 AM

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Maggie, I'll have some thoughts on this later today.

And here's the response of the guy in charge:

posted by FbL on February 18, 2007 12:30 PM

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Look forward to your thoughts, FbL.

The article describes what goes on in civilian hospitals everywhere, unfortunately. But we should be doing a BETTER job at military hospitals.

posted by MaryAnn on February 18, 2007 1:08 PM

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You know, my first thoughts were, "do we have Angel presence there."?

did we float this up or into forums?

posted by Kat-missouri on February 18, 2007 3:10 PM

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And, I liked Sen. Johnson's speech.

But I also liked the major who sent the slides in regards to the Star Tribune insisting the Iranian stuff was manufactured.

His closing words were:

"We are looking for imbeds from the Star Tribune"

posted by Kat-missouri on February 18, 2007 3:16 PM

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Maggie - I sent the Bldg 18 story to my newly-elected *health care expert* Democrat House Rep with a note that here was a chance to excel.

Rather than pursue pointless posing with non-binding resolutions, ask this Administration what it was going to do about it - and provide an answer if the Administration offered nothing but air as a response.

posted by John of Argghhh! on February 18, 2007 4:49 PM

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Calibre missile: main warhead: 137.4 mm 136 mm
Warhead: Tandem shaped charges high explosive (HE)
Weight: firing post: tripod: thermal imager: missile tube: in tactical container: 5 kg 5 kg 3.5 kg 12.5 kg

Range: 50 m to 600 m

Time of flight to maximum range: 4.3 seconds

Guidance: optically tracked, single wire

semi-automatic command to line of sight

Control: thrust vector controlled

Missile velocity at launch: at 600 m: 18 m/s 245 m/s

Rate of fire: 5 missiles in two minutes

Operating conditions: -31°C to 51°C

Sights: optical and thermal imagery

Manufacturers Eryx: Mirabel
thermal imager: EVIGS: EPGS: Aerospatiale, France TCO/Asaca, Montreal, Canada Simtran, Montreal, Canada

Livefire demo video at:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=9731d_4407

posted by justsomeguy on February 18, 2007 8:26 PM

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YOu know Maggs, I've got some ideas. BUt no idea how to put them into action.
1) Budget and buearacracy are always a problem How to cut the middle man---like the guy who got the grant only to be stymied. So screw it. We do it. Donations of cash, materials, and manhours to do it with. Which requires moving piles of red tape---as Fuzz can attest to---but we can do it. I can't do it alone and have no idea where to start. Advice is very welcome at this point---particularly on the orginizational front(I've never taken care of more than 20 athletes at one time).
2) Who to contact about a) getting myself a place to place my bedroll(or not) b) who to hit up and how for materials and certified contractors(would prefer a rotation so nobody get's hammered--but adds to red tape) to satisfy building code ord and such c) who to contact in officialdom to start the pebble that becomes the mountain we have to move. Again, advice is very welcome at this point.
3) I'm no leader either. This will likely fail, but someone has to start. Please, any advice at all people. Phone numbers and email addys for those I have to start contacting.
4) I'm tired of this, and tired of being shamed by John to pitch nickels in a hat. "He who dares", right? I need help. Lots of it. BUt I'm not going to get this changed on my own. Who's down with this?

These are my people. I have a responsibility to them that's been ignored for too damn long. I need help. Who's coming along?

posted by ry on February 18, 2007 8:46 PM

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Haven't had time to put down my thoughts about this... but hopefully tomorrow.

Ry, you hit on the core of this problem that is most actionable--the condition of the building. Most of the other issues have either been recently addressed or are matters of bureaucratic organization/systems (stuff that we can't touch, other than through advocacy).

But here's a crazy idea I had about the building: how about one of those rebuild/makeover places tackle it? Lodging the occupants for a week might be a problem, since they're probably not feeling up to a week at some tourist destination. But perhaps a local hotel could donate a floor of rooms or something for a week, and a shuttle service would donate their time to get people to and from tWR? I mean, imagine the PR they all would get for it!

Maybe it's late and I'm crazy. I'll sleep on it tonight and see if this still sounds reasonable to me in the morning.... ;)

posted by FbL on February 18, 2007 10:25 PM

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No, actually, that's a great idea. An angle I hadn't thought of before. I wonder if they have the budget for it though, and the legal requirements to be met. Now I need to make a list of people to contact on that too.

I was thinking that we would go one of two routes if that doesn't work:
1) A large group(300+ people) that does the carpentry and painting in a week.
2) A small (10-30,rotating) group that does a room every couple of days---carpentry and painting both.

BOth depend on what type of group get's put together and what the PTB can deal with. Flexibility.

Mold sounds like such a namby-pamby thing, but it isn't. They need different paint than what they used to combat that(sometimes lowedt bidder isn't best, depends on what corners they cut to be lowest bidder).

I'm glad I've thrown this out there now. I was afraid of looking like a jerk when it failed and I had to slink off and hide in shame. Now I know it won't. I've got some Denizens backing me up. Thanks Fuzz.(knock on wood)

And of course, I blame John for putting pretensions of being able to do this in my head. Don't it suck when people actually follow your lead, BB?;)

I've emailed RC at WR and left something in the WR guestbook(low prob of contact on the last). I've tracked down the phone numbers list off the website. I'm thinking either public works or security. BEst guess people?

posted by ry on February 18, 2007 11:33 PM

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Ry, I'm got contacts who have contacts at WR, if you know what I mean... I'll run this past them--they're likely to know how things really work.

posted by FbL on February 19, 2007 5:49 AM

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They'll also be able to talk credibly about how things are today, not just how they were a yea ago (as the article does).

posted by FbL on February 19, 2007 5:50 AM

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The WaPo now have a second WR article up http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/02/18/AR2007021801335_pf.html

Fixing Bldg 18 certainly is the most actionable item, and involving one of those "extreme makeover" groups is an excellent idea.

But what I like about having "regular" people do the work is that the time spent at the facility could lead to relationships being made amongst the patients and staff.... which, in turn, could lead to the formation of some new type of patient advocacy group or program.

Patient advocacy seems to be the biggest problem at medical facilities of all kinds, as I mentioned above. When my Dad had a stroke last December, I realized what a huge issue this is. My 78-year old Mom could never have managed the process alone.

Getting back to the work on Bldg 18... what I've learned from having an ongoing presence at Landstuhl is that people gradually start turning to you, asking for assistance in filling gaps in the system. As you earn their trust by demonstrating you can get stuff done without going public about it or stepping on anyone's toes, those requests increase.

However, even when operating "outside the system", it is crucial to respect the system and the staff. You will get nothing done if people feel you are going around them or showing them up. Volunteer work can be very political. I'm sure FbL knows what I'm talking about here.

There is a Commander at each facility like this, and he/she needs to buy in to everything that happens. Commander and PAO.

For all we know, there may already be plans to refurbish or replace Bldg 18.

On the other hand, since WR is slated for closure in 2011, there may no longer be federal funding available for improvements. In that case they may be very open for assistance from the private sector.

posted by MaryAnn on February 19, 2007 6:06 AM

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Excellent points all the way around, MaryAnn. That's why I said I wanted to talk to some contacts. And I suspect you're right about the impact of the 2011 closure (no plans for refurbishment).

posted by FbL on February 19, 2007 9:27 AM

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OMG, I just read that second article. Unbelievable! And when you actually KNOW ABOUT some of the people they cover... talk about being able to slant a story.

I don't have any reason to deny or disbelieve anything they describe (other than that this story is at least several months old), but the tone... the tone!! I swear, if I didn't know a thing about Malogne house and didn't know any wounded vets, I'd read this and couldn't help but conclude they're all a bunch of "combat-addled" (to quote the WaPo!) druggies who will ever make anything of their lives again!!!!!

I'm so angry I can hardly see straight!!!!

posted by FbL on February 19, 2007 9:48 AM

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Fuzzy, thank you so much. I'm no leader. If this is left to me, on my lonesome, it'll fall apart, but it needs to get done.

Feel free to hand out my email to people, Fuzz. That way you don't have to play operator.

posted by ry on February 19, 2007 4:46 PM

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� Dismissed, Soldier!

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A knocked-out MkIV... whats that crest on the turret skirt? I can't make it out.

posted by Neffi on February 18, 2007 10:38 AM

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Later model MkIV (long 75 and bolt on armor on turret). Also the bore evacuator looks plugged. Did they stick their nose in the dirt?

posted by Blackhawk on February 18, 2007 10:48 AM

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Coffee hasn't kicked in yet. Meant the muzzle brake looks plugged (or covered?), not bore evacuator.

posted by Blackhawk on February 18, 2007 10:58 AM

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Comrades,

The interesting part of the story is that it was knocked out on the Golan Hights, I believe, during the 6-day war.

I'm going on deep core memory here, but IIRC, these were Syrian Mk-IV's. They had 4 or 6 of them up there, still in use more than 20 years after WWII ended.

I personally think it was criminal of them to be using them in combat. Not because they were outclassed and a danger to their crews in combat, but because there are so damned few left. They OUGHT to have been in a museum somewhere, but alas.....

Interesting, though, how so many years later, you have Israelies with Shermans, and Syrians with Panzer IV's..... talk about a surreal engagement.

Respects,

posted by Gwedd on February 18, 2007 11:06 AM

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Looks like that bolt-on, anti-shaped charge armor took a hit from a solid AP shot.

posted by BillT on February 18, 2007 11:31 AM

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That looks like a cover on the muzzle brake; look closely and you can see a couple of straps holding it on. Poor buggers never got a shot off... I bet the carcass finished it's days on an Israeli tank gunnery range (unless it's still there, bulldozed to the side and forgotten)

posted by Neffi on February 18, 2007 12:02 PM

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AW1 Tim, during the Balkan wars which attended the breakup of Yugoslavia, the Serbs (possibly the Croats and Bosnians as well) were still using T-34s. The Serbs also used US made tank destroyers of WWII vintage-I couldn't tell from the overheads if they were M18s (3" gun) or M36s (90mm).

When you've got a tank-any tank-and the other guy doesn't, it's a huge advantage.

posted by Heartless Libertarian on February 18, 2007 12:05 PM

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Crest on the skirt looks like the Afghan crest, same as used on the Afghan contract ZB30 light machine guns. Terrain certainly looks like the hospitable Afghan countryside.

posted by John S. on February 18, 2007 1:18 PM

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Comrades,

More images of this vehicle, and a nice discussion about the Syrian Pz IV's may be found here:

http://www.fun-online.sk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1943&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=syria&start=0

Post-war purchases from Spain. Nice discussion about them, and they also got some Stuggs in the deal.....

Respects,

posted by Gwedd on February 18, 2007 1:54 PM

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AW1 Tim, I've got a Macksey book that references Israeli Centurions trading pot shots with a two Syrian MkIVs near Nukheila in Nov 60. The Centurions had 105s...not much of a contest.

Israelis kept their Shermans for quite some time. I seem to recal that they still had Super Shermans in their inventory as late as 1982.

posted by Blackhawk on February 18, 2007 1:57 PM

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Yay I guessed it right.

Well I got the war and area right anyway.

Clearly desert, clearly not DAK therefore post WWII and only an Arab would be dum enough to use them.

I say let em have nukes, you know their going to screw up and set them off themselves soon enough.

Ask Allenby.

posted by Murray on February 18, 2007 2:58 PM

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The "loose track" looks a little too much so, fubar in fact.

posted by Consul-At-Arms on February 18, 2007 4:38 PM

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That may well be part of the current KO status of the wagon.

posted by Murray on February 18, 2007 5:05 PM

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wot in the helk is wrong with the tracks?

posted by afsister on February 18, 2007 5:30 PM

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Afsis
The track, er, broke. It appears to have been in close proximity to the impact by a heavy metallic object, travelling at a velocity of not less than a "speeding bullet", on the hull side. Such impacts can be, at minimum, disruptive, but trend generally toward traumatic. But not for the gunner who pressed the trigger.

Sabot -> Hard Target = Gratification+++

Cheers

posted by J.M. Heinrichs on February 18, 2007 8:19 PM

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Reminds me of some of the aviation hand-me-downs for that region.

IIRC, the Israelis copped some BF-109s (maybe from Spain, re-engined with the Hispano-Suiza) and B-17s. The Egyptians had Spitfires left over from WW2.

So we had the surreal instance of Israeli Messerschmidts escorting Flying Fortresses, and being intercepted by Spits.

Yoicks.

posted by Casey Tompkins on February 18, 2007 9:24 PM

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Thanks, JMH!

posted by afsister on February 19, 2007 9:36 PM

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� Dismissed, Soldier!

Leonidas did not have to fight at Thermopyles. An authoritative council was against it but he sensed impending enslavement and submission where others did not--PC and politics was never going to stand in the way of defending his homeland and that he achieved as a King, a leader and a free man alongside other free brave men. Itan I Ipitas. The Thespians also did not have to stay until the last man; it was not in their creed as it was of Sparta. It's in times of uncertainty bravery conquers all other feelings..

Here is a video from Greece of Leonidas: The Spartans. The song in it is a famous poem called Axion Isti, translated - "It is worthy". We cry when we here this song because we are grateful for sacrifices made for our freedom throughout the ages.

May I say also that dhimmitude is overrated. We know this in Greece for close to 500yrs under the Ottomans. We wish Leonidas and his men were alive then to defend us from dark centuries... but alas. Liberalism and appeasement will not defend us from captivity and much worse, nor will surrender and retreat. It's men like Leonidas' 300 and Thespia's brave that save the day for the rest of us...

We have a saying in Greece also "opou zhs kai patris", where you are is home. We know for ourselves in our hearts what is this place of value. If not, then we are still searching like Jason in the Odyssey... Ithaki is an island of the west coast of Greece. In ancient times it was renowned for the happiness its citizens enjoyed. Homer uses its significance as a place of cheer and contentment symbolically for all of us... it's why those who know their Ithaki--its true value and richness--will defend it as much as they cherish it also. It's also why miserable people who are always negative cynical and nasty don't know how to bravely defend anything of real value... it's missing from their hearts to begin with.

God bless America and its proud citizens who know its worth. God bless and protect your brave men and women in uniform everywhere.

A bit of a side-note: as a folk-oriented music teacher I often taught traditional Greek dances to my students, which may explain my reaction to the song in the video Xenophon mentions. Though I do not understand modern Greek (I studied ancient Greek in college), it--and Xenophon's words--stirs something in me despite the separation of years and cultures... - FbL

� Secure this line!

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Rock inscriptions at Thermopylae:

Against three million men fought, in this place,
Four thousand Peloponnesians, face to face.

Tell them in Lakedaemon, passerby,
Carrying out their orders, here we lie.

Here great Megistias lies, whom Median men
Killed when they crossed Sperchios; who that day,
Seer as he was, with Sparta's captains then,
knew what was coming, and preferred to stay.

...I hope the Persians get a fair shake. They had many good points by the standards of the day. What really hurt them was less Thermopylae than a concurrent storm which sank half their fleet off the Greek coast.

posted by OD on February 18, 2007 6:05 PM

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Sheesh. Leave it to Owen to come pee on the fire in the interest of "balance!"

8^)

So, Owen, think the world would be a better place if Xerxes had triumphed?

Where you been, boyo?

posted by John of Argghhh! on February 18, 2007 7:09 PM

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YEah, but I thought it was Salamis that ended the whole deal, no?

posted by ry on February 19, 2007 1:47 AM

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ry: while Salamis put paid to the question of logistics, without the tactical "victory in defeat" at Thermopylae, the Persian would have never considered that he could be defeated.

Thermopylae was the triumph of citizenship over servitude.

Go tell the Spartans!

posted by MajMike on February 19, 2007 8:32 AM

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and oh by-the-way...

i'll be at that movie on opening day, bringing my son and about four of his buddies, and i have made "Gates of Fire" by S. Pressfield their mandatory reading assignment before we go see it.

they better not screw up this story.

posted by MajMike on February 19, 2007 8:35 AM

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Oh, I've been keeping busy, what with the baby and all. Truth is, I've been chatting on the web rather less lately. It was more fun when I was a beleaguered minority. Practically everyone seems to share my opinions these days.

Ry: Xerxes went home after Salamis, which certainly was the most decisive battle, but he left his best forces in Greece under his general Mardonius. These then fought a land battle against an Athenian-Spartan-Plataean force at Plataea, and were beaten.

Then the Athenians and Spartans decided to press their advantage by crossing the Aegean to free the Greek cities of Ionia. The entire western Turkish coast was then Greek but under Persian rule. So really the war went on.

The Athenians' "liberations" in the Aegean and Ionia later became known as the Athenian empire. They frequently rebelled against Athens and connived with their old masters the Persians.

Even the hero of Salamis, Themistocles, eventually fled Greece over a scandal and ended up working for the Persians.

Naturally I don’t wish the Persians had conquered Greece. But I do have a soft spot for the Persians. They were tolerant, decent rulers by the standards of the day, and much more magnanimous in victory than most ancient Near Eastern peoples, including the Greeks. The first Persian emperor, Cyrus, was a hero in the Old Testament for ending the Babylonian Captivity of the Jews.

I often draw a parallel between Athens after the Persian invasion and the US after the Cold War. Both were democracies that got carried away by military ambition after their main enemy was perceived to have fled the field. Both overreached, became domineering themselves, and ended up throwing away the credit they had earned in taking their original, justified stand. Ultimately, their hubris succeeded only in driving away former allies.

Athens eventually fell under the spell of a pampered aristocratic demagogue, Alcibiades, whose only qualification for power was his family connections. He then led them into the disastrous Syracuse expedition, where they became bogged down and frittered away their power. Sound familiar?

I doubt anyone will read this, since it’s several days old now.

posted by OD on February 22, 2007 1:50 PM

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Owen: Oh, I've been keeping busy, what with the baby and all. Truth is, I've been chatting on the web rather less lately. It was more fun when I was a beleaguered minority. Practically everyone seems to share my opinions these days.

Ppplllpppppttttt!

posted by John of Argghhh! on February 22, 2007 2:06 PM

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PS I'm sure MajMike won't see this, but if you do, I think you have a very rosy view of the Spartans: "Thermopylae was the triumph of citizenship over servitude."

Spartan citizenship was even more limited than Athenian. Even in the city of Sparta itself, only a small minority of adult males were Spartiates, or full citizens. The rest were Perioikoi, with military duties but no vote.

And the vast majority of the population of the country, Lacedaemon, weren't Lacedaemonians (Spartans) at all, but Helots, a captive nation of slaves.

Sparta's Helot wars, both the original conquest and the suppression of later slave revolts, were incredibly brutal and vicious, and even other Greeks spoke of them in hushed, shocked tones.

I would ten thousand times rather be an Ionian Greek living in one of Persia's tributary cities than a Helot under Sparta. Those Greek cities could even revolt unsuccessfully and be spared the sack. Even their leaders were sometimes spared. But if a Helot so much as looked at a Spartan sideways, it was an excuse for genocide.

Spartans were considered weird and fanatical by other Greeks. They had no freedom, no private lives. They exposed their kids in hillsides at birth to weed out the weak. They then took boys from their families and brought them up in boarding schools were they were underfed so they had to steal food. If caught, they were beaten. It was supposed to make them tough.

It mostly just made them corrupt. Spartan kings and generals were notoriously susceptible to bribes by Persians and others. Leonides died at Thermopylae, but his predecessor Kleomenes and his successor Latychidas both ended their days in prison for corruption. Kleomenes' predecessor Damaratos, whose throne he had usurped, accompanied Xerxes' army as an advisor during his invasion of Greece. The Spartans actually had to withdraw from the overseas war against Persia because they couldn't find honest, incorruptible commanders.

Married Spartans had to live in barracks, away from their wives and kids. New trainees were attached to older men in a bizarre apprenticeship in which homosexuality and child abuse was expected, even encouraged.

Sparta was once famous in Greece for overthrowing tyrants. But this wasn't done out of a love of freedom, it was because tyrants represented the lower classes and Sparta stood for aristocratic rule. Sparta later became notorious in Greece for suppressing democracy. Kleomenes tried to install an oligarchy in Athens just a few years before Xerxes invasion.

They worshipped bravery, but other military virtues meant nothing to them. When Kleomenes crushed the Argives in the field in about 497BC, their men escaped to a sacred grove just outside Argos and hid there.

Kleomenes got their names from people in the city, then called them out one by one, saying their ransom had been paid by relatives. As they came out, they were killed.

Eventually the Argive soldiers got wind of the trick, and stopped coming out. So Kleomenes set fire to the sacred grove. Not very honourable.

Plataea, a genuinely gallant little city with a real citizen army that had played an outsize part in repelling the Persians, was later cruelly destroyed by the Spartans themselves in the Peloponnesian Wars, an act which shocked other Greeks.

The Spartans never had any guiding principle but naked military power and an insatiable desire to lord it over other Greeks. When their power was broken by Epaminondas of Thebes at Leuctra and at Charonaea in 371-362BC, their fall was mourned by no-one.

posted by OD on February 22, 2007 4:39 PM

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You know the problem with that whole tale you just told OD? You completely missed the point of the story.

While you dismiss the story as an aberration and myth that covers up some disagreeable aspects of Spartan history, the story was meant, in and of itself, outside of the hoi-paloi of history, to inspire greatness. To inspire bravery. To be more than you are. To be more than they were.

When I read this entire history lesson, it sounds like you are dismissing a brave act of sacrifice as inconsequential because, somewhere out there, the Spartans weren't perfect. I don't know if that's the case, but it looks and sounds like it.

It's like saying Pappy Boyington's actions in WWII were not important because, in the rest of his life, he was a drunk and abandoned his child.

Like saying we should dismiss the declaration of independence because it was written by Thomas Jefferson, a slave owner. We should, of course, throw out the constitution because it was signed by slave owners as well. Oh, and several of the signers had mistresses, were bankrupt and possibly profiteers.

It's like the media not publicizing the heroic actions of a service man or a group to any extent because the war is not popular. Thus, the sacrifice might be sad, but you can't hold it up as an example because the reason for the sacrifice was bad or has lost public support.

It completely misses the point that the sacrifice is its own virtue, regardless of politics. A man who will jump on a grenade to shield his friends has demonstrated a virtue beyond the political dialogue.

That is the point of the "300".

Our country has focused so often upon the failures (which there are plenty) that we have forgotten to look for and hold up the virtues we should emmulate.

posted by kat-missouri on February 22, 2007 7:57 PM

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So I guess that would include an SS Sonderkommando who jumped on a grenade thrown by a resisting Jew? If any military force ever came closest to the spirit of the Spartan army, it was the SS. The same ethic of togetherness, comradeship, patriotism and self-sacrifice. What about all those Germans who made the ultimate sacrifice to keep Hitler in power? Should we seek to emulate their example, removed from politics?

What about Saddam? Should I admire him for going to his death in a brave, dignified manner?

The Spartans weren't better people, or even braver people. They were people who came from a society in which men were trained to fear disgrace more than death. The Spartan's bravery was mostly terror at the thought of being ostracised by his club.

What's more, I'm specifically opposed to the idea of Thermopylae being held up as an example for today. I can see where this is going - brave Westerners defend civilisation against vast dark forces from the East.

If there is a parallel with today, America is in the role of the Persians, not the Spartans. They are the side with the vast military machine. They are the invading, alien force. To Xerxes and his superpower empire, Leonidas was an insurgent.

posted by OD on February 22, 2007 9:07 PM

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'That is the point of the "300".'

This number, 300, tells you plenty about the Spartans. 6000 men defended Thermopylae.
But only 300 of them were upper-class Spartans. The rest - Helots, Thespians, Thebans and other Boiotians, are largely forgotten. To be fair, some of these were sent away by Leonidas when he learned his flank had been turned, but not the Thespians, who died to a man and never got any credit for it. And of course not the Helots.

It's striking that when westerners like Leonidas choose to die fighting when they have the option to surrender, they are feted as heroes.

But when easterners like Japanese soldiers at Iwo Jima, or some Talibani or insurgent in a spider-hole make the same choice, they are simply crazy fanatics.

posted by OD on February 22, 2007 9:22 PM

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Let me ask you something...do you really think that the SS commando that threw himself on the grenade was imagining that he was saving the Reich, keeping the machine alive one more day to kill jews or screaming allegiance to his fatherland at the last moment?

You imagine the act of sacrifice and its virtues can only be defined by one thousand extrenuous circumstances and historical context?

Or, can you imagine that somewhere in Germany today an old man still remembers with awe, pride and humility that one day, in a trench with four other guys, a grenade came flying in and his best friend saved them all by jumping on the grenade. The old man, now beyond the politics of his youth, may not recall the Reich with fondness, but he probably thanks his lucky stars every day that his friend sacrificed himself so that he could live.

You see, you are still trying to define virtuous acts by everything else under the sun instead of the act of self sacrifice in the service of others (ie, protecting your friends) as a virtue.

What you are saying is that because I disagree with you and vis-a-versa and I think that your way is wrong, even dangerous, if we were standing in a trench, a grenade flew in and I saw it first, instead of jumping on it to save you I should jump out of the trench and let you eat metal since sacrificing myself would have no meaning due to my political beliefs, past misdeeds or current.

Or, if I jumped on the grenade, you would not honor my sacrifice because I was obviously worthless and thus so was the act of saving your life.

Are you seriously telling me that you do not see the virtue and heroism, regardless of their political allegiances, in 300 men standing against 1 million? Or understand, at the last minute, regardless of leonides speeches, the last men sacrificed themselves, not for Sparta but for the 10 remaining beside them? To live one more minute so another might live.

You don't see the virtue in that?

Then again, you probably imagine that it was a product of their dispicable, brainwashing upbringing, void of any individual conscience thought, therefore, void of virtue.

posted by kat-missouri on February 22, 2007 9:34 PM

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Well, when you put it that way, and apply it consistently, then I have to agree with you. Of course I am moved by that spirit of self-sacrifice.

But do you apply it consistently? Here's a story about two guys who sacrificed their lives willingly fighting a foreign invader. Their daring but suicidal diversion spared their comrades a pointless frontal assault on a fortified position. Did they 'demonstrate a virtue beyond the political dialogue'?

BAGHDAD, Feb. 19 -- A U.S. military facility north of Baghdad was targeted Monday by suicide bombers and other armed men who killed three American soldiers and wounded 17 in an unusually brazen attack.
...Two suicide car bombers tore through the main gate and detonated their explosives, destroying part of the building...
A gun battle between U.S. troops and armed men raged for about 20 minutes after the initial explosions.

?

posted by OD on February 22, 2007 11:13 PM

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Yes, OD, they did. It was a frontal attack on a superior armed enemy. That may seem crazy and even suicidal (no pun intended), but it was a straight on attack.

I hate their politics. I hate their ideas. I would never consent to live under them or agree to believe in them. I would fight them every day. I don't believe anyone else should be forced to live under the virtual and physical slavery of their ideas. And, for whatever you may believe about "imperial America", I do find, without confusion or confliction, that liberalism and democracy is better. Finally, had we not been attacked, our ideas would have won out in the end without a shot being fired.

If you read the texts of bin laden's speeches, Zawahiri's books and many sermons from co-religionists, you would know that they knew it too. That is why they chose a physical fight even against our superior military, political and economic power.

If you cannot find any virtue, anything to admire or anything to respect about your enemy, then several things will happen:

1) You will consistently underestimate him, his dedication to his cause, his dedication to winning and the lengths to which he will go to win. therefore, you will consistently act in ways detrimental to your cause that will get you killed and possibly lose the war.

(Clausewitz and Sun Tzu gave similar advice)

I can honestly say, though it may be amusing to imagine bin Laden and his cohorts as "stupid sheep herders" hiding away in a cave, I never give into that image as the defining him, his fellow travellers or his cause. I don't just imagine him to be intelligent and capable at managing resources, I know that he is. Therefore, I do not imagine that Afghanistan nor Iraq will be the final battle or that he will simply drift away to nothing of consequence because we have attrited his physical forces or material resources.

I know the only way to defeat him, short of genocidal destruction of every "conservative" Muslim, is to defeat his ideas, reduce his support and finally, kill him, in whatever manner that will take and in whatever order.

You also cannot underestimate the idealism that continues to see hundreds if not thousands of men from different countries and different ethnic, educational and economic backgrounds joining the cause or coming to Iraq or Afghanistan. They believe in their own form of "virtue" which we can't take foregranted even for a minute.

Had you wished to test my theory, you would have been better off to ask me how I felt about the guy, also believing, that straps a suicide vest on, walks into a crowded market full of civilians, men, women and children and blows them up including himself. I would call him a murderer because I don't see the honor in that. He did not confront an armed enemy superior or not. He acted with stealth and malice afore thought, purposefully attacking the undefended.
I don't see the honor in that, whatever his beliefs or cause or imaginations of "sacrifice". I suspect you don't either.

Still, the act has meaning and we had better respect that meaning or we will never find the way to defeat him.

2) You may become "desensitized" to his humanity and, in turn, you may become inhumane. If you massacre his wounded, you massacre a piece of your soul. When you slaughter his women and children without compunction, with malicious intent, you have maligned your own soul. You become what you behold. In fact, not only do you destroy yourself, but you undermine or destroy your own cause.

3) When the war is over, you will never reconcile yourself to the war, its reasons or even to your once enemy. You will be forever destined to fight him if he and you cannot reconcile. You may even be induced to destroy him to the last descendent.

Still, out of all this, I can say without confliction and with total conviction that I do not have to accept that his grievances are legitimate, that his ideology is "right" or even equal to the idea of democracy and liberty, I don't have to believe he has a right to attack me and mine without suffering the consequences, nor do I have to believe that I should quit the field and leave it to him.

There lies the paradox.

posted by Kat-missouri on February 23, 2007 1:03 AM

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dang. looks like i missed a good piss-a-rooni here.

well, in summary, i'm with Kat on this particular topic (up until the Baghdad suicide murderers part).

..at its simplest form: a "citizen" fights because of an internalized moral sense of duty and obligation to his fellow citizens, in service to his state (said state being duly derived from the consent of the citizens thereby governed, in mutual agreement and compact; however imperfect such a state may be); in contrast to a "subject" who fights because of compulsion to his liege lord (no matter how willingly such service is given or in how "noble" a manner) (and with generous allowances for our Brit comrades-in-arms, yet they remain "subjects", and a toast to them and Her Royal Highness!)

that's the point i was striving to make above, and i frankly acknowledge all of the excellent point raised by OD and i had every intention of incorporating many such similar points into my discussion with my son's friends (as he himself is about sick of hearing it from me).

evidently my laconic presentation of my position was not sufficient to the task.

posted by MajMike on February 23, 2007 9:40 AM

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Well, Kat, I reopened this thread with some trepidation, because I was sure my Baghdad comparison would raise a storm of indignation. But I can see I underestimated you. I guess you really do apply it consistently. I particularly liked your point about underestimating the enemy. It's so easy for patriots to fall into double standards - one code for us, another for them - but I guess you've resisted that temptation. Yours is a very soldierly attitude. Politics aside, of course you're right that Leonidas and his men earned their place in the military hall of fame. (Though I do still think it's a bit harsh on the Helots and Thespaians who never get a mention.)

posted by OD on February 23, 2007 12:15 PM

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MajMike, I presume your use of the word laconic is a pun. I’m guessing you already know that the word’s root comes from Lacedaemonia, the Spartans’ country. They were famous for being men of few words.

One laconic quote from Thermopylae is attributed by Plutarch to Leonidas, but in older texts is always credited to a hoplite called Dienekes, one of the 300, who apparently had a reputation for such pithy quotes.

When the Greeks learned that Persians were behind them as well as in front, a frightened man of Trachis told the Spartans that when the Persians shot their arrows they darkened the sun. “Very good,” said Dienekes. “We shall fight in the shade.”

posted by OD on February 23, 2007 12:22 PM

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Another laconic quote from the same morning, this one attributed by Ephoros to Leonidas: "Eat a good breakfast, men. We shall dine in Hades!"

posted by OD on February 23, 2007 12:25 PM

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laconic as a pun?

indeed!

heh.

posted by MajMike on February 23, 2007 3:39 PM

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� Dismissed, Soldier!