We're the Military and Airpower Guys of Jonah Goldberg of National Review Online + a stray we found wandering around looking lost. All original material JHD, BHD, JR, WT, and KA 2003-2007 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/on_the_subject.html Tue, 23 Sep 2008 18:05:41 Z Movable Type 4.12 en Copyright 2008 http://www.rssboard.org/rss-specification Cliff sez: You appear to be an historian. Can you point to anytime in history that we have contracted privately for security in theatre? You do keep moving the bar around a bit, Cliff, having gone from contracting services in general to now being more specific regarding security. Precedent for contracting services in general. 1. Revolution 2. War of 1812 3. War with Mexico 4. Civil War 5. Indian Wars 6. War with Spain 7. Philippine Insurrection 8. All Naval overseas supply operations, and most local, until the advent of at-sea replenishment and significant overseas basing. The logistics establishment of... http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/on_the_subject.html http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/on_the_subject.html Thu, 18 Jan 2007 07:02:46 -0600 ACtually, isn't there some half-crazed former SEAL who's sitting in an Afghan prison for 'going off the reservation'? Best check with Uncle Jimbo on that one since he's been fighting with people over it for a while. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/on_the_subject.html#comment-55348 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/on_the_subject.html#comment-55348 Sat, 20 Jan 2007 05:46:46 -0600 change. Contractors and embeds are now held to UCMJ standards. ]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/on_the_subject.html#comment-55347 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/on_the_subject.html#comment-55347 Sat, 20 Jan 2007 05:38:10 -0600 Ah. Well, actually, I *did* answer that. I do have some friends currently working for Blackwater, so in that aspect I have some insight. I don't think you'll find that it's too many Blackwater guys doing that cowboy stuff... but there's *always* cowboys in an environment like this, whether in uniform or no. On both sides. The chaos of a war zone attracts them like flies, from all cultures. But where I answered your question was where I discussed the differences between having huge, draft-fed armies with lots of bodies, operating in largely liberated, vice occupied terrain, and when we did occupy, it was a people who thoroughly knew they were beaten. That's not the case in Iraq. We don't have that huge, draft-fed army fighting a war that both sides agree settled the question. We're fighting a people (as in all Iraqis) most of whom were not initially affected by the fighting, and the ones that were, the Sunni supporters of Hussein, eventually realized that we weren't going to treat them like they are used to being treated when conquered... and then, when we needed to, we didn't have enough troops to do it - not to mention the political will and, face it, support of the the media and international opinion which would have allowed us to act more forcefully earlier on - which might well have reduced the violence later. A concept many people with little to no true experience with violence on this scale understand. And so the private contracting security stepped in to fill the void that soldiers filled in previous, draft-fed, much-larger-Army wars. And we didn't handle it well, much less control it. And that's a lick on us. But, as I mentioned on a different blog, that of a person who managed to find three videos of three incidents where testosterone-soaked, under-supervised twenty-somethings in a war zone did stupid (but not lethal or even really physically injurious) things, they inferred from that sample that that must stand in for the literally hundreds of thousands of soldiers and millions of interactions. Because that fit their paradigm for the war, and the template they wanted to apply to it. Same thing applies in some respects to the contracting. I've seen some of some of those videos you are probably referencing - and again, while it certainly looks, and quite possibly is, very bad, it doesn't necessarily extrapolate to all security contractors all the time. And the problem with some of that video is you don't have before and after context. You just have the powerful imagery. I've been in those situations - what led up to it, and what followed are as important as what you see. And that can be a context of weeks and days. That context certainly may not be exculpatory, but if you haven't danced in the meadow where it Iron Crosses grow, it's sometimes hard to understand what you are seeing. I can watch brain surgery - but I don't necessarily understand what I'm seeing, if you get my point. We didn't do the military governance thing as well this time as we did in WWII. Part of it is we lost the expertise, and another part of it is we didn't have the people, and yet another part of it is that the civilians branches of the Federal Gov't didn't stand up and take the roles they should have. Both because Rumsfeld wouldn't let some of them (because he, in some case with just cause) didn't trust them, in others, because they wouldn't do it unless they were in charge - yet they didn't have any concept of how to handle the security situation, either. That falls squarely at the feet of the President and his Cabinet. I did answer your question, just not explicitly enough. We're doing this as an economy of force operation, and we didn't do it well, because literally, aside from some Banana Wars sorts of things, we'd never done it in these conditions. And sorry for the delay in answering this comment - while the 'moderation' issue is fixed, I'm still not getting email notifications of the comments, and I just overlooked your response in the queue. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/on_the_subject.html#comment-55339 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/on_the_subject.html#comment-55339 Fri, 19 Jan 2007 21:58:51 -0600 John, Thanks for the response, Perhaps I wasn't clear. I was talking about private contractors for security in theatre. I believe that exactly what I said. Let me be more clear. We've contracted with companies like Blackwell whose guys are running around Iraq killing Iraqis without any oversight or coordination with US military. No accountability. There seems to be an endless stream of video of these guys taking pot shots at cars and people in addition to more purpose-driven combat. I was hoping to get your professional perspective on that concept from an historical, and policy stand point. Thanks Cliff http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/on_the_subject.html#comment-55297 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/on_the_subject.html#comment-55297 Fri, 19 Jan 2007 13:11:41 -0600 On the subject of Contractors, the use of, current and historical, with a peculiar emphasis on Iraq. Change from: Korea... I honestly don't know. Change to: Korea... I honestly don't remember. By the Direction of the Armorer. ]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/on_the_subject.html#comment-55250 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/on_the_subject.html#comment-55250 Fri, 19 Jan 2007 06:43:16 -0600 John, Korea? Fehrenbach. Yes, when the UN Forces went in they did wind up hiring locals for 'tote and carry' jobs. An observation made was that when these contractors disappeared after demanding to be paid early someone should've known the Imun-Gun was a comin'. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/on_the_subject.html#comment-55243 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/on_the_subject.html#comment-55243 Thu, 18 Jan 2007 22:25:46 -0600 And won't you all be surprised when he comes back and drops a comment the size of the Federal Register in here? Hopefully easier to read, tho. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/on_the_subject.html#comment-55234 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/on_the_subject.html#comment-55234 Thu, 18 Jan 2007 17:30:53 -0600 MajMike - To paraphrase Jack Nicholson, "Maybe Cliff couln't handle the truth." http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/on_the_subject.html#comment-55232 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/on_the_subject.html#comment-55232 Thu, 18 Jan 2007 16:35:59 -0600 spices.. (btw, where did Cliff go? wasn't he supposed to come back?)]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/on_the_subject.html#comment-55230 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/on_the_subject.html#comment-55230 Thu, 18 Jan 2007 15:50:01 -0600 Spade - good point. And done for the same reason... not enough hulls and people to sail them. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/on_the_subject.html#comment-55227 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/on_the_subject.html#comment-55227 Thu, 18 Jan 2007 15:06:15 -0600 The easy historical example would be the "letters of marque" which Congress is still authorized to issue. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/on_the_subject.html#comment-55226 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/on_the_subject.html#comment-55226 Thu, 18 Jan 2007 14:57:49 -0600 Didn't artillerymen start out as private contractors? I think armies started having their own guys do it because the gunners refused to do some things they thought might get them killed, or something. "Hey, I'm a technician. I don't do *combat*, that's just icky!" http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/on_the_subject.html#comment-55224 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/on_the_subject.html#comment-55224 Thu, 18 Jan 2007 14:31:55 -0600 Just what was that Johnson County Range War about anyway? Give ya some hints: Murphy, Tunstall, contracts to supply beef. And here you thought Billy the Kid was just another Gun Slinger from the violent west. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/on_the_subject.html#comment-55221 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/on_the_subject.html#comment-55221 Thu, 18 Jan 2007 13:57:35 -0600 More information on LOGCAP if anyone is really interested in how the program works and recent history.]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/on_the_subject.html#comment-55219 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/on_the_subject.html#comment-55219 Thu, 18 Jan 2007 12:59:57 -0600 Can you say, Carpet-bagger?" :) ML http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/on_the_subject.html#comment-55207 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/on_the_subject.html#comment-55207 Thu, 18 Jan 2007 09:09:07 -0600 MajMike - good catch! http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/on_the_subject.html#comment-55206 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/on_the_subject.html#comment-55206 Thu, 18 Jan 2007 08:50:59 -0600 ..and maybe we could contract out the Secret Service function to Pinkertons. (oh? nevermind) http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/on_the_subject.html#comment-55205 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/on_the_subject.html#comment-55205 Thu, 18 Jan 2007 08:46:50 -0600 Yo we have contracted out the PX for most of our military history -- at least the Army has. Sutlers certainly made a killing on those poor soldiers. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/on_the_subject.html#comment-55204 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/on_the_subject.html#comment-55204 Thu, 18 Jan 2007 08:34:52 -0600 John, Excellent outline. For those who might think that the problems with civilian contractors (greedy, slipshod methods, lousy production, etc) is of recent device, I would urge them to peruse the massive files on corruption and malfeasance regarding Civil War period contractors, some of whom actually DID take the money and run. The army commissary department had to actually go to accepting only coffee beans in the green , unground, in order to stop suppliers from adding various "fillers" such as sawdust, sand, charcoal, bark, and other nasty things to increase their profit margin. troops were forced to roast their own beans and then grind them as best they could in many cases. The government also had to contract with various railroads and express companies in order to transport goods from the various acceptance points to the distribution centers, and sometimes even to advanced depots and railheads. The South, in particular, NEVER had a military railroad system such as the North established during the war, and as a consequence, had to depend upon contracts with private railroads for all of it's troops and logistical transport, with all the attendant concerns. Interesting part of our military history, that. Respects, http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/on_the_subject.html#comment-55202 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/on_the_subject.html#comment-55202 Thu, 18 Jan 2007 08:09:30 -0600 But John, come on! You know the real reason Cliff is so troubled by the "contracting" issue. It's HALLLIBURTON! And Cheney! And evil, rich neo-cons getting even richer off Dumbya's illegal war and American tax-payer funded no-bid "contracts"! Oh .... and they're stealing all the OOIILLL! http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/on_the_subject.html#comment-55200 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/on_the_subject.html#comment-55200 Thu, 18 Jan 2007 07:51:30 -0600