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  <id>tag:www.thedonovan.com,2008://1/tag:www.thedonovan.com,2007://1.6992-</id>
  <updated>2008-09-23T18:05:41Z</updated>
  <title>Comments for On the subject of Contractors, the use of, current and historical, with a peculiar emphasis on Iraq.</title>
  <subtitle>We&apos;re the Military and Airpower Guys of Jonah Goldberg of National Review Online + a stray we found wandering around looking lost.  All original material JHD, BHD, JR, WT,  and KA 2003-2007</subtitle>
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  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.thedonovan.com,2007://1.6992</id>
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    <link rel="service.edit" type="application/atom+xml" href="http://www.thedonovan.com/cgi-bin/mt41/mt-atom.cgi/weblog/blog_id=1/entry_id=6992" title="On the subject of Contractors, the use of, current and historical, with a peculiar emphasis on Iraq." />
    <published>2007-01-18T13:02:46Z</published>
    <updated>2007-04-08T20:41:25Z</updated>
    <title>On the subject of Contractors, the use of, current and historical, with a peculiar emphasis on Iraq.</title>
    <summary>Cliff sez: You appear to be an historian. Can you point to anytime in history that we have contracted privately for security in theatre? You do keep moving the bar around a bit, Cliff, having gone from contracting services in general to now being more specific regarding security. Precedent for contracting services in general. 1. Revolution 2. War of 1812 3. War with Mexico 4. Civil War 5. Indian Wars 6. War with Spain 7. Philippine Insurrection 8. All Naval overseas supply operations, and most local, until the advent of at-sea replenishment and significant overseas basing. The logistics establishment of...</summary>
    <author>
      <name>The Armorer</name>
      <uri>http://www.thedonovan.com</uri>
    </author>
    
    <category term="Global War on Terror (GWOT)" />
    
    <category term="Historical Stuff" />
    
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="http://www.thedonovan.com/">
      <![CDATA[<p>Cliff sez:</p>

<blockquote>You appear to be an historian. Can you point to anytime in history that we have contracted privately for security in theatre?</blockquote>

<p>You do keep moving the bar around a bit, Cliff, having gone from contracting services in general to now being more specific regarding security.</p>

<p>Precedent for contracting services in general.</p>

<p>1. Revolution<br />
2. War of 1812<br />
3. War with Mexico<br />
4. Civil War<br />
5. Indian Wars<br />
6. War with Spain<br />
7. Philippine Insurrection<br />
8. All Naval overseas supply operations, and most local, until the advent of at-sea replenishment and significant overseas basing.</p>

<p>The logistics establishment of the services was actually pretty small.  WWI was the first time we really expanded logistics and put soldiers to the task, mostly because we found ourselves in a situation where the other combatants were fully occupied themselves, and shipping space to move a huge US military structure overseas was limited, and we were fighting a "total effort" war - overseas.  A first for us.</p>

<p>WWII - same same.</p>

<p>Korea... I honestly don't know.</p>

<p>Vietnam - we had a draft army (something that happens to be coincidentally true of, hmmmmmm, WWI, WWII, and Korea) but we still started contracting out some services then.</p>

<p>Then, along comes July 1, 1973, and we're back to an all volunteer Army.  Well, we are when the last intake of draftees end their terms without re-enlisting.  The ones that stay, well, they obviously convert to... volunteers.</p>

<p>Since then we've been trying to balance teeth to tail, and what functions go where in the force structure.</p>

<p>And we *reverted* to our previous modus vivendi, contracting.</p>

<p>As for security in general - you have to consider the nature of the war, as Ry alluded to in his comment.</p>

<p>As a slightly snarky observation, in the Indian Wars we contracted out reconnaissance....  [Update: And, as Spade pointed out in the comments - Letters of Marque and Reprisal]</p>

<p>In the wars we fought up to Vietnam last century, we were fighting with large, draft-fed armies, and significant, well-organized allies who were fighting for their national lives.  We were generally liberating occupied territory, and fighting an enemy who fought conventionally.  This is especially true of WWI and II.  The local political situation and the military reality of the crushing combat which had flowed both ways over the occupied nations, plus the issue of liberation, combined with huge armed forces made large-scale behind the lines security largely  un-neccessary, Skorzeny notwithstanding.</p>

<p>Korea was largely similar - though in that war there was guerrilla activity by the UN behind NK/Chinese lines in the north (my father was involved in that) and a commando threat behind UN lines.  But again, the population was generally friendly or at least neutral, and we had that largish, draft-fed Army, along with the South Korean army, which provided the requisite security.</p>

<p>Vietnam - the nature of that war was different, but the South Vietnamese government and armed forces, bad as bits and pieces of both were, were more fully functional than is true with the situation in Iraq.</p>

<p>And there was not the decay of infrastructure to deal with - the rebuilding requirement, not just of war damage, but correcting the decade of neglect caused by the sanctions, where Saddam et cie built palaces and let power plants decline.</p>

<p>And we still had that draft-fed Army.</p>

<p>Comes Iraq, volume I.  We do start contracting out baseops functions and we did contract out some security.  But as Ry noted in his comment - we were kicking Iraq out of Kuwait, putting us in a situation more similar to WWI, and we were doing it with the Cold War army of 780,000 troops.</p>

<p>Now comes Iraq, volume II.  Having already conceded I think the March Upcountry was a brilliant campaign as an economy of force operation, but it should have been rather a different event in a more perfect world. Of course, we don't live in the perfect world.</p>

<p>So, now Cliff gripes about the 100,000 security contractors.  He sort of conflates things, mixing all forms of security contractors into one lump, but let's run with that.</p>

<p>Again, we are now in the non-draft-fed Army era.  There are only so many troops available for the job.  There is a huge infrastructure rebuilding requirement, which is not going to be met by military engineering assets.</p>

<p>And the local government is shaky at best (save perhaps the Kurdish areas), with a significant internal security threat to be dealt with - not least because we were as humane as we could be in this last war and didn't just stomp everything flat, as we did with Germany and Japan.</p>

<p>There are large numbers of Iraqis who never saw an American during the major combat operations phase, who found themselves bewildered by what happened.  You'd have been hard-pressed to find a German or Japanese in 1945 who wasn't fully cognizant that they had had their butt handed to them, nicely filleted and medallioned.</p>

<p>So, the security situation is completely different.  And we don't have the troops to conduct ops *and* provide all the needed security.  Neither do the Iraqis.  And some of their better trained individuals are on the side of those causing the problems.</p>

<p>So, we contract out some security efforts, rather than diverting expensive and highly trained combat troops to those jobs.</p>

<p>And all the people coming in to do work, not able to get US troops or local troops/police to provide security, do what?  Contract for private security.</p>

<p>So that, Cliff, is how I see Contracting.</p>

<p>1.  It's not unprecedented.  It's actually a reversion to a model we used previously, especially for logistics.  Contractors hauled most of the supplies, even if they were issued by the Quartermaster.  Troops cooked meals in squad groups, not centrally.  Units built their own shelters, but war and campaigning were different then.  Not to mention the washer-women, and the undertakers who followed the Armies.  Then there's the Sutler - that is a function we've turned upside down - we've made that a quasi-governmental function - via AAFES (which is commanded by a Major General, currently of the Air Force).</p>

<p>2.  Providing all our own security is dependent on several factors. And those conditions present, especially that draft-fed Army and War for Survival thing that allowed an armed force of 16 million men for WWII, 5 million during Vietnam, allow you some luxuries that the Economy of Force operation we are conducting now lacks.</p>

<p>3.  Contracting, especially supervision thereof, has not been handled well.  Plenty of room for criticism there and improvement.  Among them may be the consensus to take on more of those functions in-house.  Which will take more troops and/or government employees, most of whom will not be needed when it's over.  Which will cost more over the long haul.  One advantage of contracting, said the currently-idle contractor waiting his next task, is that you don't have a long-term commitment to me - to include medical or retirement.  The company has that burden, or not, depending on how things are operating.</p>

<p>Does that answer your question, Cliff?  Oh, and yeah, I'm something of a historian.  At least, the Army paid me to be a military history instructor.  But, as a long-term reader of my blog will quickly discern, my interest and specialty is more on the hardware.  </p>]]>
      
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  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.thedonovan.com,2007://1.6992-comment:55348</id>
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    <title>Comment from ry on 2007-01-20</title>
    <author>
        <name>ry</name>
        
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="">
        ACtually, isn&apos;t there some half-crazed former SEAL who&apos;s sitting in an Afghan prison for &apos;going off the reservation&apos;?  Best check with Uncle Jimbo on that one since he&apos;s been fighting with people over it for a while.  
    </content>
    <published>2007-01-20T11:46:46Z</published>
    <updated>2007-01-20T11:46:46Z</updated>
  </entry>
  
  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.thedonovan.com,2007://1.6992-comment:55347</id>
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    <title>Comment from ry on 2007-01-20</title>
    <author>
        <name>ry</name>
        
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="">
        <![CDATA[And times also <a href="http://www.defensetech.org/archives/003123.html" rel="nofollow">change</a>.  Contractors and embeds are now held to UCMJ standards.  ]]>
    </content>
    <published>2007-01-20T11:38:10Z</published>
    <updated>2007-01-20T11:38:10Z</updated>
  </entry>
  
  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.thedonovan.com,2007://1.6992-comment:55339</id>
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    <title>Comment from John of Argghhh! on 2007-01-19</title>
    <author>
        <name>John of Argghhh!</name>
        <uri>http://www.thedonovan.com</uri>
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="http://www.thedonovan.com">
        Ah.  Well, actually, I *did* answer that.  I do have some friends currently working for Blackwater, so in that aspect I have some insight.

I don&apos;t think you&apos;ll find that it&apos;s too many Blackwater guys doing that cowboy stuff... but there&apos;s *always* cowboys in an environment like this, whether in uniform or no.  On both sides.  The chaos of a war zone attracts them like flies, from all cultures.

But where I answered your question was where I discussed the differences between having huge, draft-fed armies with lots of bodies, operating in largely liberated, vice occupied terrain, and when we did occupy, it was a people who thoroughly knew they were beaten.

That&apos;s not the case in Iraq.  We don&apos;t have that huge, draft-fed army fighting a war that both sides agree settled the question.  

We&apos;re fighting a people (as in all Iraqis) most of whom were not initially affected by the fighting, and the ones that were, the Sunni supporters of Hussein,  eventually realized that we weren&apos;t going to treat them like they are used to being treated when conquered... and then, when we needed to, we didn&apos;t have enough troops to do it - not to mention the political will and, face it, support of the the media and international opinion which would have allowed us to act more forcefully earlier on - which might well have reduced the violence later.  A concept many people with little to no true experience with violence on this scale understand.

And so the private contracting security stepped in to fill the void that soldiers filled in previous, draft-fed, much-larger-Army wars.

And we didn&apos;t handle it well, much less control it.  And that&apos;s a lick on us.

But, as I mentioned on a different blog, that of a person who managed to find three videos of three incidents where testosterone-soaked, under-supervised twenty-somethings in a war zone did stupid (but not lethal or even really physically injurious) things, they inferred from that sample that that must stand in for the literally hundreds of thousands of soldiers and millions of interactions.  Because that fit their paradigm for the war, and the template they wanted to apply to it.

Same thing applies in some respects to the contracting. I&apos;ve seen some of some of those videos you are probably referencing - and again, while it certainly looks, and quite possibly is, very bad, it doesn&apos;t necessarily extrapolate to all security contractors all the time.  And the problem with some of that video is you don&apos;t have before and after context.  You just have the powerful imagery.  I&apos;ve been in those situations - what led up to it, and what followed are as important as what you see.  And that can be a context of weeks and days.

That context certainly may not be exculpatory, but if you haven&apos;t danced in the meadow where it Iron Crosses grow, it&apos;s sometimes hard to understand what you are seeing.  I can watch brain surgery - but I don&apos;t necessarily understand what I&apos;m seeing, if you get my point.

We didn&apos;t do the military governance thing as well this time as we did in WWII.  Part of it is we lost the expertise, and another part of it is we didn&apos;t have the people, and yet another part of it is that the civilians branches of the Federal Gov&apos;t didn&apos;t stand up and take the roles they should have.  Both because Rumsfeld wouldn&apos;t let some of them (because he, in some case with just cause) didn&apos;t trust them, in others, because they wouldn&apos;t do it unless they were in charge - yet they didn&apos;t have any concept of how to handle the security situation, either.  That falls squarely at the feet of the President and his Cabinet.

I did answer your question, just not explicitly enough.

We&apos;re doing this as an economy of force operation, and we didn&apos;t do it well, because literally, aside from some Banana Wars sorts of things, we&apos;d never done it in these conditions.

And sorry for the delay in answering this comment - while the &apos;moderation&apos; issue is fixed, I&apos;m still not getting email notifications of the comments, and I just overlooked your response in the queue.
    </content>
    <published>2007-01-20T03:58:51Z</published>
    <updated>2007-01-20T03:58:51Z</updated>
  </entry>
  
  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.thedonovan.com,2007://1.6992-comment:55297</id>
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    <title>Comment from Cliff on 2007-01-19</title>
    <author>
        <name>Cliff</name>
        <uri>http://www.oneutah.org</uri>
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="http://www.oneutah.org">
        John, Thanks for the response,

Perhaps I wasn&apos;t clear.  I was talking about private contractors for security in theatre.  I believe that exactly what I said.

Let me be more clear.

We&apos;ve contracted with companies like Blackwell whose guys are running around Iraq killing Iraqis without any oversight or coordination with US military.  No accountability.

There seems to be an endless stream of video of these guys taking pot shots at cars and people in addition to more purpose-driven combat.

I was hoping to get your professional perspective on that concept from an historical, and policy stand point.

Thanks
Cliff
    </content>
    <published>2007-01-19T19:11:41Z</published>
    <updated>2007-01-19T19:11:41Z</updated>
  </entry>
  
  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.thedonovan.com,2007://1.6992-comment:55250</id>
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    <title>Comment from John of Argghhh! on 2007-01-19</title>
    <author>
        <name>John of Argghhh!</name>
        <uri>http://www.thedonovan.com</uri>
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="http://www.thedonovan.com">
        <![CDATA[Change 2 to Post: <em>On the subject of Contractors, the use of, current and historical, with a peculiar emphasis on Iraq.</em>

Change from: <em>Korea... I honestly don't know.</em>

Change to: <em>Korea... I honestly don't remember.</em>

By the Direction of the Armorer.


]]>
    </content>
    <published>2007-01-19T12:43:16Z</published>
    <updated>2007-01-19T12:43:16Z</updated>
  </entry>
  
  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.thedonovan.com,2007://1.6992-comment:55243</id>
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    <title>Comment from ry on 2007-01-18</title>
    <author>
        <name>ry</name>
        
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="">
        John, Korea?  Fehrenbach.  Yes, when the UN Forces went in they did wind up hiring locals for &apos;tote and carry&apos; jobs.  An observation made was that when these contractors disappeared after demanding to be paid early someone should&apos;ve known the Imun-Gun was a comin&apos;.  
    </content>
    <published>2007-01-19T04:25:46Z</published>
    <updated>2007-01-19T04:25:46Z</updated>
  </entry>
  
  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.thedonovan.com,2007://1.6992-comment:55234</id>
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    <title>Comment from John of Argghhh! on 2007-01-18</title>
    <author>
        <name>John of Argghhh!</name>
        <uri>http://www.thedonovan.com</uri>
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="http://www.thedonovan.com">
        And won&apos;t you all be surprised when he comes back and drops a comment the size of the Federal Register in here?

Hopefully easier to read, tho.
    </content>
    <published>2007-01-18T23:30:53Z</published>
    <updated>2007-01-18T23:30:53Z</updated>
  </entry>
  
  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.thedonovan.com,2007://1.6992-comment:55232</id>
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    <title>Comment from Oldloadr on 2007-01-18</title>
    <author>
        <name>Oldloadr</name>
        
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="">
        MajMike - To paraphrase Jack Nicholson, &quot;Maybe Cliff couln&apos;t handle the truth.&quot;
    </content>
    <published>2007-01-18T22:35:59Z</published>
    <updated>2007-01-18T22:35:59Z</updated>
  </entry>
  
  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.thedonovan.com,2007://1.6992-comment:55230</id>
    <thr:in-reply-to ref="tag:www.thedonovan.com,2007://1.6992" type="text/html" href="http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/on_the_subject.html"/>
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    <title>Comment from MajMike on 2007-01-18</title>
    <author>
        <name>MajMike</name>
        <uri>http://thedonovan.com</uri>
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="http://thedonovan.com">
        <![CDATA[..and let us not forget Robert Clive taking that 160K Pound bribe from Mir Jaffar (the nawab of Bengal) back in 1757 after the Battle of Plassey.

i blame it all on the East India Company.

it's all about the <em>spices</em>..

(btw, where did Cliff go?  wasn't he supposed to come back?)]]>
    </content>
    <published>2007-01-18T21:50:01Z</published>
    <updated>2007-01-18T21:50:01Z</updated>
  </entry>
  
  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.thedonovan.com,2007://1.6992-comment:55227</id>
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    <title>Comment from John of Argghhh! on 2007-01-18</title>
    <author>
        <name>John of Argghhh!</name>
        <uri>http://www.thedonovan.com</uri>
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="http://www.thedonovan.com">
        Spade - good point.  And done for the same reason... not enough hulls and people to sail them.
    </content>
    <published>2007-01-18T21:06:15Z</published>
    <updated>2007-01-18T21:06:15Z</updated>
  </entry>
  
  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.thedonovan.com,2007://1.6992-comment:55226</id>
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    <title>Comment from Spade on 2007-01-18</title>
    <author>
        <name>Spade</name>
        
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="">
        The easy historical example would be the &quot;letters of marque&quot; which Congress is still authorized to issue.
    </content>
    <published>2007-01-18T20:57:49Z</published>
    <updated>2007-01-18T20:57:49Z</updated>
  </entry>
  
  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.thedonovan.com,2007://1.6992-comment:55224</id>
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    <title>Comment from Justthisguy on 2007-01-18</title>
    <author>
        <name>Justthisguy</name>
        <uri>http://enemiesofthelibrary.blogspot.com</uri>
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="http://enemiesofthelibrary.blogspot.com">
        Didn&apos;t artillerymen start out as private contractors?  I think armies started having their own guys do it because the gunners refused to do some things they thought might get them killed, or something. &quot;Hey, I&apos;m a technician. I don&apos;t do *combat*, that&apos;s just icky!&quot;
    </content>
    <published>2007-01-18T20:31:55Z</published>
    <updated>2007-01-18T20:31:55Z</updated>
  </entry>
  
  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.thedonovan.com,2007://1.6992-comment:55221</id>
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    <title>Comment from kat-missouri on 2007-01-18</title>
    <author>
        <name>kat-missouri</name>
        
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="">
        Just what was that Johnson County Range War about anyway?

Give ya some hints: Murphy, Tunstall, contracts to supply beef.  

And here you thought Billy the Kid was just another Gun Slinger from the violent west.
    </content>
    <published>2007-01-18T19:57:35Z</published>
    <updated>2007-01-18T19:57:35Z</updated>
  </entry>
  
  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.thedonovan.com,2007://1.6992-comment:55219</id>
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    <title>Comment from kat-missouri on 2007-01-18</title>
    <author>
        <name>kat-missouri</name>
        
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="">
        <![CDATA[And, um..I might be a little confused on the story line, but I had the impression that some of Benedict Arnold's problems post Saratoga and pre-West Point was in regards to delivery of product, quality of goods or pricing.  I may be a little shaky on the exact details, but it was one of those things that "impugned his honor", thus adding to his feelings of being "slighted" by the Continentals and leading to his eventual traitorous activities.

And, i hate to point out "Dances with Wolves", but one part that wasnt' too far off was the private contractor delivering large amount of food, material and weapons to far flung forts.  In general, such contractors provided their own security to and from, often made their own private treaties with the tribes or used bribery to insure the safety of their products.  

In even more modern times, having done some considerable research on Halliburton and KBR, both companies, as separate entities and as a merged conglomberate, have had contracts with the United States government since before WWII.  In fact, Root and Brown (predecessor to KBR), built the Corpus Christi, Texas Naval Air Station along with several other projects during WWII.

They also received a major contract with NASA in 1968.  In 1991, Haliburton is selected by the DOD to put out the oil well fires (320) after Desert Storm.  This is a "no bid" contract because literally no other company could muster the resources needed to put out the fires.  I didn't here anyone complaining about the contracting, lack of bids, etc during that time.  For that matter, was Cliff old enough to know what a contractor was much less worry abou it.

Just so everyone get's this is not a Republican contracting issue, in 1992, KBR wins bid for logistical support (ie, building bases, supplying food, etc) to troops in Somalia, Bosnia, Croatia and Hungary.

1995, KBR gets big contract to dismantle ICBM silos in Kazahkstan (hey, isn't that a Democrat president?).  

In 1997, the most interesting thing occured.  President Clinton ordered the Pentagon to dismiss the winning contract bid from Dyna corp for LOGCAP and give it to Halliburton.

One of my most favorite recent bruhahas over the contracting was in 2003.  Sen. Waxman of California insisted on investigations into the subcontracting process for Halliburton.  Ostensibly, this appeared to be Democrat concerned with the abuse of money and power by an alleged "Republican" owned company (of course, Halliburton is publically traded).  However, it turned out that Waxman was actually fronting for the Bechtel company which was upset that it did not receive specific contracts.  

The Bechtel company is, not surprisingly, a California based company in Waxman's area.  The contract would have increased revenue and, of course, jobs for area residents, thus increased state revenue from taxes and Waxman's chances of re-election.

but, reverting back to an historical review of contracting, maybe Cliff doesn't know that some of the range wars, like Johnson county, were about the right to supply goods, beef, etc to the US army and US managed indian reservations?  Does Cliff know why Billy the Kid was with Mr. Tunstall as a gun fighter?  

If I can be blunt, most of the current day whipping over contracting is a bunch of bunk.  Particularly the partisan kind.  Of course we should all be looking out for corruption, but I highly doubt it is attributable to a specific administration or political party.  The system is full of holes.  the GAO audits everything they can but to get so good potential errors or corruption is eliminated, you'd have to have one of the biggest departments in the government.  Probably right after the military.

<a href="http://themiddleground.blogspot.com/2004/06/busting-conspiracy-theories-1-blood_30.html" rel="nofollow">More information on LOGCAP </a>if anyone is really interested in how the program works and recent history.]]>
    </content>
    <published>2007-01-18T18:59:57Z</published>
    <updated>2007-01-18T18:59:57Z</updated>
  </entry>
  
  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.thedonovan.com,2007://1.6992-comment:55207</id>
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    <title>Comment from Mike Lehnherr on 2007-01-18</title>
    <author>
        <name>Mike Lehnherr</name>
        <uri>http://bsgfb</uri>
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="http://bsgfb">
        Can you say, Carpet-bagger?&quot;  :) ML
    </content>
    <published>2007-01-18T15:09:07Z</published>
    <updated>2007-01-18T15:09:07Z</updated>
  </entry>
  
  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.thedonovan.com,2007://1.6992-comment:55206</id>
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    <title>Comment from John of Argghhh! on 2007-01-18</title>
    <author>
        <name>John of Argghhh!</name>
        <uri>http://www.thedonovan.com</uri>
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="http://www.thedonovan.com">
        MajMike - good catch!
    </content>
    <published>2007-01-18T14:50:59Z</published>
    <updated>2007-01-18T14:50:59Z</updated>
  </entry>
  
  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.thedonovan.com,2007://1.6992-comment:55205</id>
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    <title>Comment from MajMike on 2007-01-18</title>
    <author>
        <name>MajMike</name>
        <uri>http://thedonovan.com</uri>
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="http://thedonovan.com">
        ..and maybe we could contract out the Secret Service function to Pinkertons.

(oh?  nevermind)
    </content>
    <published>2007-01-18T14:46:50Z</published>
    <updated>2007-01-18T14:46:50Z</updated>
  </entry>
  
  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.thedonovan.com,2007://1.6992-comment:55204</id>
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    <title>Comment from JimC on 2007-01-18</title>
    <author>
        <name>JimC</name>
        
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="">
        Yo we have contracted out the PX for most of our military history -- at least the Army has.  Sutlers certainly made a killing on those poor soldiers.  
    </content>
    <published>2007-01-18T14:34:52Z</published>
    <updated>2007-01-18T14:34:52Z</updated>
  </entry>
  
  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.thedonovan.com,2007://1.6992-comment:55202</id>
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    <title>Comment from Gwedd on 2007-01-18</title>
    <author>
        <name>Gwedd</name>
        
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="">
        John,

     Excellent outline. For those who might think that the problems with civilian contractors (greedy, slipshod methods, lousy production, etc) is of recent device, I would urge them to peruse the massive files on corruption and malfeasance regarding Civil War period contractors, some of whom actually DID take the money and run. 

     The army commissary department had to actually go to accepting only coffee beans in the green , unground, in order to stop suppliers from adding various &quot;fillers&quot; such as sawdust, sand, charcoal, bark, and other nasty things to increase their profit margin. troops were forced to roast their own beans and then grind them as best they could in many cases.

      The government also had to contract with various railroads and express companies in order to transport goods from the various acceptance points to the distribution centers, and sometimes even to advanced depots and railheads. The South, in particular, NEVER had a military railroad system such as the North established during the war, and as a consequence, had to depend upon contracts with private railroads for all of it&apos;s troops and logistical transport, with all the attendant concerns.

       Interesting part of our military history, that.

     Respects,
    </content>
    <published>2007-01-18T14:09:30Z</published>
    <updated>2007-01-18T14:09:30Z</updated>
  </entry>
  
  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.thedonovan.com,2007://1.6992-comment:55200</id>
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    <title>Comment from fdcol63 on 2007-01-18</title>
    <author>
        <name>fdcol63</name>
        
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="">
        But John, come on! You know the real reason Cliff is so troubled by the &quot;contracting&quot; issue.

It&apos;s HALLLIBURTON!  And Cheney!  And evil, rich  neo-cons getting even richer off Dumbya&apos;s illegal war and American tax-payer funded no-bid &quot;contracts&quot;!

Oh .... and they&apos;re stealing all the OOIILLL!
    </content>
    <published>2007-01-18T13:51:30Z</published>
    <updated>2007-01-18T13:51:30Z</updated>
  </entry>
  
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