We're the Military and Airpower Guys of Jonah Goldberg of National Review Online + a stray we found wandering around looking lost. All original material JHD, BHD, JR, WT, and KA 2003-2007 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/ive_got_a_new_s.html Tue, 23 Sep 2008 18:05:20 Z Movable Type 4.12 en Copyright 2008 http://www.rssboard.org/rss-specification Antique Ordnance Restoration Expert. Heh. *That* oughta jump right out at all those Fortune 500-type recruiters… A couple of the guys from the State Militia Museum found out I was "between jobs" and dragooned me into doing a li'l pro bono work. Okay, okay, a * lot* of pro bono work. They made me the Aviation SME and have me working on everything save things that slip the surly bonds of earth. Well, for a couple of months, I kept telling myself, I should'a brought my camera – the kids would love this stuff. Today, I did. I'll post my... http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/ive_got_a_new_s.html http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/ive_got_a_new_s.html Sun, 21 Jan 2007 09:13:24 -0600 Don't forget the rivet-count in the turret. The rivet-count is the key... [going straight to *do-not-pass-go* hades for that one!] http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/ive_got_a_new_s.html#comment-55511 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/ive_got_a_new_s.html#comment-55511 Tue, 23 Jan 2007 01:04:57 -0600 I was wrong, I think.... That looks like an M2 turret, sort of, the early one, and it has the right number of roadwheels, etc, but it's all wrong and the upper hull is wrong, etc... crap. I'm gonna quit doin' this. Waaaa http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/ive_got_a_new_s.html#comment-55510 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/ive_got_a_new_s.html#comment-55510 Tue, 23 Jan 2007 00:29:20 -0600 M2 before that I can recall. I thought it was a modified M3/M5 or something 'cause of the suspension and the odd hull/turret, but I was thinking the wrong way in time. So there... And yeah, I saw the teardrop, but got distracted by the jeep with the right side steering wheel. Lots of cool stuff there... ]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/ive_got_a_new_s.html#comment-55509 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/ive_got_a_new_s.html#comment-55509 Mon, 22 Jan 2007 23:36:28 -0600 game, sports fans!!]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/ive_got_a_new_s.html#comment-55507 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/ive_got_a_new_s.html#comment-55507 Mon, 22 Jan 2007 20:46:22 -0600 hung up on this - Sanger - they have a fargin' submersible! Or something close, anyway. Bad news, fdcol - we're museum pieces!]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/ive_got_a_new_s.html#comment-55505 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/ive_got_a_new_s.html#comment-55505 Mon, 22 Jan 2007 19:44:46 -0600 If you google the 112th Field Artillery Museum, you will see a lot of decent equipment shots, especially the outside tanks... Cool, they have a duster and a long tom and some old tank (looks french) I don't have time to look for... BTW, this is really aggravating! That's two in a row I can't figure out. Frabjous Snarkleflix! http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/ive_got_a_new_s.html#comment-55501 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/ive_got_a_new_s.html#comment-55501 Mon, 22 Jan 2007 18:39:42 -0600 MajMike - no, because that *is* a French 75mm. The quick give-away are the sideburns on the muzzle. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/ive_got_a_new_s.html#comment-55500 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/ive_got_a_new_s.html#comment-55500 Mon, 22 Jan 2007 18:28:34 -0600 http://www.newjersey.gov/state/darm/links/images/ng/SDENG010-A268f.jpg]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/ive_got_a_new_s.html#comment-55499 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/ive_got_a_new_s.html#comment-55499 Mon, 22 Jan 2007 18:21:37 -0600 ...I know where that is. That's the old horse rink at the 112th FAA in New Jersey! I did a ton of work there last summer with Col. Kale and the other vets, helping reorg the library and clean up an old jeep, and my USNSCC unit drills there the last weekend of every month! Man, the world gets smaller every day. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/ive_got_a_new_s.html#comment-55493 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/ive_got_a_new_s.html#comment-55493 Mon, 22 Jan 2007 16:20:59 -0600 Ok.. yer right about glacis, I was T'ard 'an it was late, etc... As for the gun, that looks to be about 85-100mm (hard to say, possible 105), and I realize it's missing some pieces unless its supposed to be recoilless, it needs some kind of shock dampeners or soemthing, it has nowhere to recoil from what I can see... So... guessin' context: test version of some kind of AT gun, recoilless, OR, its something someone decided to kit-bash to drive folks like us nuts... As for the "field" gun: 37mm Gun M3A1 ? Caliber: 37mm Weight : 990 lbs Elevation : -10 to +15 gegrees Muzzle Vel: APC 2,900 feet/sec Barrel length : 82.5 inches Penetration : 2 inches in 1000 yards Breech Mechanism : Vertical sliding block Projectile types : APC and HE If so, MajMike gets that one, IF he was talking about the left hand gun, not the middle weirdo... Otherwise, I do. PS I also saw the Sherman (was looking for it, cause I think that's one of its rubber roadwheels sitting on the towing end of the at gun. Or not, in which case I wasn't thinking that at all... :) http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/ive_got_a_new_s.html#comment-55489 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/ive_got_a_new_s.html#comment-55489 Mon, 22 Jan 2007 14:49:31 -0600 The muzzle markings only ID the barrel maker and serial number. Barrels were replaceable and after they were worn out, replaced with aonther from spare parts inventory. The actual gun number and maker are the ones on the breech. Several of the early US 3 inch guns M1902 etc were nearly identical and I suspect the barrels were interchangeable. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/ive_got_a_new_s.html#comment-55480 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/ive_got_a_new_s.html#comment-55480 Mon, 22 Jan 2007 11:52:30 -0600 I think it is part of the experimental T-18 90mm anti tank gun series developed late in WWII from the same gun that the M-26 Pershing and M-36 Wolverine used. Which itself was derived from an AA gun to boot. :] http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/ive_got_a_new_s.html#comment-55475 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/ive_got_a_new_s.html#comment-55475 Mon, 22 Jan 2007 10:47:57 -0600 i got yer glacis right here, pal... but meanwhile, back at that AT piece, i'm 'contexting' the heck out of it, and all i'm coming up with is 37mm, nothing bigger. (so i get credit for any correct answer up to and including 8 inch) http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/ive_got_a_new_s.html#comment-55465 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/ive_got_a_new_s.html#comment-55465 Mon, 22 Jan 2007 08:41:16 -0600 "Ummmmmm -- don't let WK and Maggie drag the comments too far afield." Hey I am the target of vicious profiling. I didn't even comment in this thread (I rarely do in threads about weapons, my weapon of choice has always been a wooden spoon). I have read all comments and I believe John is the chief instigator here. I'm just a poor, innocent victim......or, as my friend WK likes to quote "I'm not bad, I'm just drawn that way!"]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/ive_got_a_new_s.html#comment-55462 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/ive_got_a_new_s.html#comment-55462 Mon, 22 Jan 2007 08:03:01 -0600 [heh. any way ya bump the comment count -- ummmm -- counts] http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/ive_got_a_new_s.html#comment-55459 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/ive_got_a_new_s.html#comment-55459 Mon, 22 Jan 2007 07:06:14 -0600 But John would call the sheet metal a gun shield (we've got the whole critter). And a tanker would squeal that the sloped forward portion of their mobile ATGM catchers is the only proper application of the term "glacis"... Speaking of tanks, how's that old joke about a crew-served portable radio go again? http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/ive_got_a_new_s.html#comment-55458 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/ive_got_a_new_s.html#comment-55458 Mon, 22 Jan 2007 07:03:31 -0600 Oh, about that first "nope" -- no real quibble with "field gun," but it's earlier (and smaller) than the T-8. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/ive_got_a_new_s.html#comment-55457 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/ive_got_a_new_s.html#comment-55457 Mon, 22 Jan 2007 06:54:33 -0600 Sanger - From left to right: nope, yep, d-uuuh but wrong ID, yup (and the antenna spring was already busted, which is why they gave it to us) and yup. Got a Nike-Herc in the boneyard, too. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/ive_got_a_new_s.html#comment-55456 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/ive_got_a_new_s.html#comment-55456 Mon, 22 Jan 2007 06:41:44 -0600 Oh! And the Ajax missile on the table in the back. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/ive_got_a_new_s.html#comment-55450 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/ive_got_a_new_s.html#comment-55450 Sun, 21 Jan 2007 23:46:12 -0600 From left to right (and no, I didn't look first): It's an old field-gun glacis, T-8? A 106mm RR. some kind of towed gun, lightweight, like the giat NATO gun, about 90-100mm? A Trk, 1/4 utility, 4x4, M151 (TM: 9-2320-218-20&P, and NO, I did NOT have to look up that number). But a newer one, or with new stuff (the side webbing was never available to us... And oh yeah, that Antenna is pulled down too far... it's stressing at the middle (where top and bottom screw in... Might want to ease up on that some) http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/ive_got_a_new_s.html#comment-55449 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/ive_got_a_new_s.html#comment-55449 Sun, 21 Jan 2007 23:37:43 -0600 ...course us naval types used a much more manly charge than the red leg types... True, but this gun was designed to hit specific targets, rather than just the Earth. Although, after receiving a broadside from the New Jersey, specific targets tended to become one with the Earth... ]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/ive_got_a_new_s.html#comment-55442 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/ive_got_a_new_s.html#comment-55442 Sun, 21 Jan 2007 21:00:30 -0600 I'll have to do some brushing to see what info's on wreck #2... Meantime, the Whatziss is *not* Canadian. Context is everything. Heh. Getting even for that Portuguese Duck O' War... http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/ive_got_a_new_s.html#comment-55433 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/ive_got_a_new_s.html#comment-55433 Sun, 21 Jan 2007 20:19:00 -0600 Kewl, Bill - rare gun, indeed! http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/ive_got_a_new_s.html#comment-55432 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/ive_got_a_new_s.html#comment-55432 Sun, 21 Jan 2007 20:01:14 -0600 Okay, the 3-incher's muzzle sez: RHEINISCHE [blur] M [blur] W&M FABRIK 1903 846 Lbs. No. 107 J.W.J. Above the breech is: [upper arc] 3 INCH FIELD [centered] U.S. [lower arc] MODEL OF 1902 Soo, it's a 1902 model cranked out by Rheinmetall before it was Rheinmetall. I'm almost positive RM got a lot of subcontract work from Krupp pre-1915, because the two of 'em were joined at the hip during the First WW and into the Second one. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/ive_got_a_new_s.html#comment-55431 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/ive_got_a_new_s.html#comment-55431 Sun, 21 Jan 2007 19:54:11 -0600 I agree, OFS. Perplexing! http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/ive_got_a_new_s.html#comment-55428 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/ive_got_a_new_s.html#comment-55428 Sun, 21 Jan 2007 19:34:07 -0600 That is an awful dinky recoil cylnder for such a big tube (course us naval types used a much more manly charge than the red leg types:-))looks kinda Canadian. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/ive_got_a_new_s.html#comment-55427 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/ive_got_a_new_s.html#comment-55427 Sun, 21 Jan 2007 19:31:04 -0600 Nope, not no commie gun. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/ive_got_a_new_s.html#comment-55424 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/ive_got_a_new_s.html#comment-55424 Sun, 21 Jan 2007 19:25:25 -0600 How about a M46 130mm field gun? http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/ive_got_a_new_s.html#comment-55416 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/ive_got_a_new_s.html#comment-55416 Sun, 21 Jan 2007 18:24:49 -0600 LMAO... John, that's hilarious! Ya know, one of these days, I'm gonna get one of these durned things, and your eyes are gonna pop out of your head. "Well, dag GUM! She DID IT! She really DID IT!" *sigh* a pipe dream... i know..... http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/ive_got_a_new_s.html#comment-55413 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/ive_got_a_new_s.html#comment-55413 Sun, 21 Jan 2007 18:16:01 -0600 "But honey, this *is* eight inches!" so, you're excused for misunderestimating.]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/ive_got_a_new_s.html#comment-55412 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/ive_got_a_new_s.html#comment-55412 Sun, 21 Jan 2007 18:11:13 -0600 40mm anti-aircraft gun http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/ive_got_a_new_s.html#comment-55411 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/ive_got_a_new_s.html#comment-55411 Sun, 21 Jan 2007 17:55:40 -0600 M1903 (yer right, M1902, my bad), some produced, I believe, by Krupp, though all I've ever seen have Watervliet marks. What's the muzzle say?]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/ive_got_a_new_s.html#comment-55407 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/ive_got_a_new_s.html#comment-55407 Sun, 21 Jan 2007 16:32:55 -0600 but probably not having a good time doing it.]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/ive_got_a_new_s.html#comment-55406 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/ive_got_a_new_s.html#comment-55406 Sun, 21 Jan 2007 16:31:24 -0600 Snerk - what, that it's in a barn? That it's next to the jeep? The reckless? That it's reversed? That it's on a damn light looking carriage for the size gun? That it looks like a tank gun on an anti-tank carriage with an artillery-style breech? I gots lots of context... but my recently unfrozen caveman brain ain't got a template to hang it on. Or I have too many templates, rather. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/ive_got_a_new_s.html#comment-55405 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/ive_got_a_new_s.html#comment-55405 Sun, 21 Jan 2007 16:24:18 -0600 1902 model, and based on the RM fabrikwerke stamping on the muzzle, it may have been contract produced in Germany; I'm still researching it.]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/ive_got_a_new_s.html#comment-55404 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/ive_got_a_new_s.html#comment-55404 Sun, 21 Jan 2007 16:22:36 -0600 I've got thoughts, but no postable answers yet. Postable or possible? Hint. Context is everything. Geez, I'm givin' away the ranch with all these hints...]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/ive_got_a_new_s.html#comment-55403 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/ive_got_a_new_s.html#comment-55403 Sun, 21 Jan 2007 16:15:03 -0600 Bill, you guys may actually have the *rarest* M1905's in existence. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/ive_got_a_new_s.html#comment-55402 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/ive_got_a_new_s.html#comment-55402 Sun, 21 Jan 2007 16:14:41 -0600 John SCORES!!! -- with the 3-incher I'm working on. As an extra added attraction, you can see the fiddly bits of the high-speed mod. Heh -- gun *carriage* pr0n... ]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/ive_got_a_new_s.html#comment-55401 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/ive_got_a_new_s.html#comment-55401 Sun, 21 Jan 2007 16:11:54 -0600 As for your whatzit - my working hypothesis is that it's a test rig for the 90/105mm tank guns, possibly an experiment to making towed guns. I like the T21, which was a 90mm with a muzzle brake *and* used the breech from a 105mm howitzer The breech on the whatziss does not look like the standard dropping block breech used in tanks, but more like a sliding block used in artillery. But I haven't been able to find a good picture anywhere - whether on the web or in my library. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/ive_got_a_new_s.html#comment-55400 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/ive_got_a_new_s.html#comment-55400 Sun, 21 Jan 2007 16:11:32 -0600 John - You could be right about it being a US 3-incher, but there's no dataplate on the gun or the carriage. However, if it *is* a 3-incher, it'll have the info etched into the top of the tube down by the breech -- I haven't wire-wheeled the dozen layers of paint off this one yet. Q: Geez, Bill, how'd you know about the etching-on-the-tube deal? A: 'Cuz I'm working on one... http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/ive_got_a_new_s.html#comment-55399 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/ive_got_a_new_s.html#comment-55399 Sun, 21 Jan 2007 15:49:50 -0600 I've got thoughts, but no postable answers yet. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/ive_got_a_new_s.html#comment-55398 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/ive_got_a_new_s.html#comment-55398 Sun, 21 Jan 2007 15:47:01 -0600 Hmmmmm -- nobody's even taken a SWAG at the Whatziss yet. Guess everybody figures it's either something so incredibly commonplace they'll look silly if they guess incorrectly *OR* something so incredibly esoteric that they'll be held in awe even if they guess incorrectly. It's incredibly commonplace in one respect and incredibly esoteric in another. Context is everything, Grasshoppah... http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/ive_got_a_new_s.html#comment-55397 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/ive_got_a_new_s.html#comment-55397 Sun, 21 Jan 2007 15:37:00 -0600 "Oh, stop whining".... But SB... I *LIKE* wine! *sniff* *pout* Hey, that reminds me.... do you know what the Jewish lady's favorite wine is? "When ahh we goin' to Mi-yaaaaaaaam-i?!?!?" http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/ive_got_a_new_s.html#comment-55384 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/ive_got_a_new_s.html#comment-55384 Sun, 21 Jan 2007 12:28:46 -0600 Oh, on the paint colors, and other sillyness: Along about that same year, (1907) I believe that the US Army went to rough-side out leather boots, i.e., non-shiny. They were kind of a tan color, like the rest of the new uniform. The idea being that they'd kinda blend into the scenery, so to speak. Also the smooth-side-in boots are proveably more weatherproof. Well, the old soldiers prevailed, and co-erced evverbody into making his boots all shiny, and everything, when he could have used the time better exercising with his weapons. At least we got the Munson Last from that http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/ive_got_a_new_s.html#comment-55383 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/ive_got_a_new_s.html#comment-55383 Sun, 21 Jan 2007 12:09:18 -0600 Heh. John must be an amazing shade of green right now... :D http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/ive_got_a_new_s.html#comment-55381 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/ive_got_a_new_s.html#comment-55381 Sun, 21 Jan 2007 10:18:40 -0600