We're the Military and Airpower Guys of Jonah Goldberg of National Review Online + a stray we found wandering around looking lost. All original material JHD, BHD, JR, WT, and KA 2003-2007 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_18_jan.html Tue, 23 Sep 2008 18:05:38 Z Movable Type 4.12 en Copyright 2008 http://www.rssboard.org/rss-specification Open post for those with something to share, updated through the day. New, complete posts come in below this one. Note: If trackbacking, please acknowledge this post in your post. That's only polite. [Hey - trackbacks work again!] You're advertising here, we should get an ad at your place... ****************************** Opposing views, wildly opposing views, to that of Argghhh! abound. Dan of tdaxp makes an argument that the war for Iraq is over (not a defeatist argument, mind you). Bill Arkin. I’ll just leave it at that. Murdoc has info on something I’ve been waiting a long time for: Nautical... http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_18_jan.html http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_18_jan.html Thu, 18 Jan 2007 23:04:57 -0600 Cricket brings up an excellent point about comment threads. Sometimes, they should just die. When they get circular, positions staked, and no further movement. Around here, we're pretty good at that. Some places, however. Or - during our semi-legendary meltdown around here during L'Affaire Schiavo. The real point I'm going to make is: Retirement doesn't mean concession, as it is so often taken for and crowed about. It just means... I'm done, take it or leave it. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_18_jan.html#comment-55352 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_18_jan.html#comment-55352 Sat, 20 Jan 2007 09:31:09 -0600 I can respect that...but wasn't there a woman pilot who had an affair with an enlisted man? And didn't they both get bounced? I know that sometimes the different rank thing should not be a part of it; wrongdoing is wrongdoing. But I have also seen instances where a higher up had nothing more than a grudge and abused the system to get rid of someone they had a personal gripe about. In this instance, she is using the 'I stood up for my rights' to do what she wanted. There are women in harm's way who don't need this additional evidence of a stereotype. We are at war. Were this peacetime, yeah a slap on the wrist would be about right. But she has potentially jeopardized other women with this and don't think for one minute that the Islamist radicals in this country won't get that magazine and get it to their mujahadeen. And other women who pose nude do American women no favors. That is one of my 'issues.' It may be a guy thing to look at it, or buy it, but ultimately it serves no purpose other that to belittle and denigrate women. Okay, I have said enough and I am not trying to impose my morals here. Thanks for letting me have my say. I am going to retire from this thread. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_18_jan.html#comment-55349 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_18_jan.html#comment-55349 Sat, 20 Jan 2007 09:00:49 -0600 Cricket – I am angry, too about what this person did. However, with my experience in the AF and the sandbox, I am willing to say she should be punished but not discharged because: 1. By all accounts she has had a stellar career up to this point and 2. As I have mentioned (documented in the AF Times) the AF has had its share of sexual scandal (amongst the higher ups) and none of them lost their pension. 3. If she is willing to put her nose to the grindstone and do her job from here on out, she should be allowed to continue to serve, albeit with proper documentation in her record. And some form of punishment behind her - BTW My daughter is staioned in Germany, so it may be a day or two before she sees my e-mail and responds. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_18_jan.html#comment-55343 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_18_jan.html#comment-55343 Fri, 19 Jan 2007 23:26:18 -0600 oldloadr, Thanks. I guess I shouldn't have gotten angry, as I am generally not a supporter of women in the military. But the ones who have broken the taboos, worked hard and earned the respect of their male peers, colleagues, supervisors, commanders, etc. certainly don't need this. And the ones in the war zone ESPECIALLY don't need this type of propaganda BS especially if they get caught. Remember, the enemy is watching, and one thing that I do remember from my college days is that every single male Muslim student did two things: Drink and buy porn. Saddam's sons, may they roast with their father were notorious for having this double standard which is totally against Islam and feeds into their derogatory ideas about women in general and western women in particular. It is all about example, and I would say the same if it were an officer. I will be anxious to hear what your daughter has to say. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_18_jan.html#comment-55338 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_18_jan.html#comment-55338 Fri, 19 Jan 2007 21:43:07 -0600 It wasn't all that long ago, I think, that you weren't allowed to enlist in the Air Force, as a woman, without producing a photograph to show that you were good-lookin. I betcha Sgt Mom will back me up on this. She is, of course, good-lookin, as is (I presume) her daughter, Corporal Blondie, USMC. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_18_jan.html#comment-55333 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_18_jan.html#comment-55333 Fri, 19 Jan 2007 21:06:09 -0600 Oldloadr - I had something to say........but..... "different rank - different spank." knocked it right out of my mind! http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_18_jan.html#comment-55331 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_18_jan.html#comment-55331 Fri, 19 Jan 2007 19:46:18 -0600 Oldloadr - Um, I don't *read* the Air Force Times. Shocking, I know. I guess I'll hafta google up S&S. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_18_jan.html#comment-55328 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_18_jan.html#comment-55328 Fri, 19 Jan 2007 17:47:38 -0600 Cricket - I have a daughter who is a SSgt in the AF (jet engine mechanic). I'm goinng to send her this link and ask her to respond with her opinion. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_18_jan.html#comment-55327 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_18_jan.html#comment-55327 Fri, 19 Jan 2007 17:29:30 -0600 What torques me is the allegations of sexual harassment and then this. Sorry, that just feeds the fire and I personally think she ought to lose a stripe and have a bar to reenlistment. The military busts a gut to narrow the definition of porn, allows Playboy to be sold in the base exchanges, denies it in the workplace, punishes personnel who engage in inappropriate conduct and then some floozy tech does this? Every single woman who has wanted to be taken seriously on her ability and works hard to play by the rules and puts up with garbage in the workplace doesn't need this. Your mileage may vary. *stirring chicken noodle soup and checking on the rolls and fruit salad* http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_18_jan.html#comment-55310 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_18_jan.html#comment-55310 Fri, 19 Jan 2007 15:54:43 -0600 John - the officer indiscretions and subsequent punishments don't bother me too much but they have been all over AF Times and Stars & Stripes, with all kinds of opinion letters about "different rank - different spank." That's why I mentioned them and that's why I don't think she'll get a BCD. However, as you touched on, I would expect her to lose the MTI AFSC and be reverted to her original AFSC as I don't see the AF leaving her as the first face of the AF that 50 new recuits see... http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_18_jan.html#comment-55305 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_18_jan.html#comment-55305 Fri, 19 Jan 2007 14:56:43 -0600 JTG, on this rather chitty day to be gollum I needed that. Dude, if I ever make it down to Florida the beer's on me. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_18_jan.html#comment-55285 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_18_jan.html#comment-55285 Fri, 19 Jan 2007 12:13:51 -0600 P.P.S.: I mind the time I sat next to my cousin and her roomie (housie?) at the dinner after my Mom's funeral. I made one of my (characteristically socially clueless) comments about "fat Navy chicks" and got a rocket right back. "Sorry, I beg yr pardon, Ma'am, Mea Maxima Culpa" I said, or words to that effect. I then asked, what was yer rate in the Navy? "O-5, that is Commander, same as Lt. Colonel", she said. "Oh!", I said. I later saw her wearing a Distinguished Service Medal ribbon, at another funeral. I do still think she's kinda sexy in a weird dangerous way http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_18_jan.html#comment-55278 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_18_jan.html#comment-55278 Fri, 19 Jan 2007 10:47:18 -0600 I'm waiting for a "Big Beautiful Women" calendar with one or more photos of, er, "healthy" Navy chicks. Don't get me wrong, scrawny wimmin frighten me; they're not normal. Rubens had the right kinda taste in wimmin. P.S. "Normal" wimmin frighten me too, but that's another issue. Sigh. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_18_jan.html#comment-55275 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_18_jan.html#comment-55275 Fri, 19 Jan 2007 10:18:35 -0600 Oldloadr - give on the officer naughtiness! Unless the fallout causes her to be unable to perform her duties, I'd lean to a Letter of Reprimand, Article 15. The only problem with the Art15 of course is if she were to call my bluff. Hmmm. The recent Army issue with the 82nd Airborne guys is clouded by the gay issue, I guess I'll go see where those cases ended up. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_18_jan.html#comment-55261 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_18_jan.html#comment-55261 Fri, 19 Jan 2007 08:22:30 -0600 We have a Pogue amongst us! Welcome. As to the investigation..um...sure. copies of the issue all around while they ask her if she was photoshopped and did she have control of the final copy, etc. *whistling off to feed the Moat Monster and fix breakfast* http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_18_jan.html#comment-55256 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_18_jan.html#comment-55256 Fri, 19 Jan 2007 07:49:03 -0600 Maggie - Only officers are dismissed; enlisted are discharged (I know, I'm being anal). My guess is her leadership will decide to offer her article 15 punishment. Based on the statements she has uttered, she may turn it down and demand a court-martial. If that happens, she could get a bad-conduct discharge. If she accepts the article 15 and loses a stripe, she may get a general discharge at the end of her current enlistment since she will then be beyond high year of tenure for an E-4. Personally, I think she should be punished (but not to the extent of a BCD). Anyway, the AF may have an image problem if they try to discharge her after some of the officer misconduct that has taken place recently and the apparently light punishment that was meted out... http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_18_jan.html#comment-55252 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_18_jan.html#comment-55252 Fri, 19 Jan 2007 07:03:20 -0600 Bill- I got my copy of "Loach" today, and have been flipping through the pages looking for my SugarButtons. *grin* http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_18_jan.html#comment-55245 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_18_jan.html#comment-55245 Thu, 18 Jan 2007 22:38:00 -0600 One little blogowner test... http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_18_jan.html#comment-55242 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_18_jan.html#comment-55242 Thu, 18 Jan 2007 21:42:56 -0600 I don't care if they are "regs" or "instructions". I don't care if she is hot or not. I am with AFSis.......she is stupid. Those should be the grounds for her dismissal. John - Your new progressive attitude gave me a chuckle. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_18_jan.html#comment-55236 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_18_jan.html#comment-55236 Thu, 18 Jan 2007 19:19:34 -0600 something apropos from Wagner...]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_18_jan.html#comment-55225 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_18_jan.html#comment-55225 Thu, 18 Jan 2007 14:57:27 -0600 AFSis, when I went to SERE back in the 70's they taught us how to open the ammo doors on a Cobra to ride out on it if necessary. There was also at least one downed pilot that rode out on one of the rocket pods. Any ride in a storm, and after a firefight the relative risk of riding outside the aircraft probably seems lower. :-) I'm sure BillT has much more info on that kind of thing. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_18_jan.html#comment-55222 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_18_jan.html#comment-55222 Thu, 18 Jan 2007 13:59:07 -0600 AF chicks may be hawt... but *that* one was stoopid! ug. Appearing in PB is one thing, but appearing in PB with part of your uniform, being promoted as a hawt military chick, is a whole 'nuther ballgame. (and judging by oldloadr's comments, I'm guessing another "ball"game will be taking place, compliments of SSG Manheart) re: Royal Marines... GOOD LORD, WHAT A BUNCH OF CRAZIES. Dayum... that's insane. They strapped themselves to the OUTSIDE of Apache's and headed back into battle. Amazing. Simply amazing. I'm glad they at least recovered the body of their fallen comrade instead of leaving his body for the Taliban to abuse. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_18_jan.html#comment-55216 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_18_jan.html#comment-55216 Thu, 18 Jan 2007 12:29:42 -0600 So I have to forget about the nay-kid gruntette I saw in PB back in my youth and only dwell on the nay-kid zoomie chick? It'll take a while for me to shift my paradigm; it's that damn conservative mind-set... http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_18_jan.html#comment-55213 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_18_jan.html#comment-55213 Thu, 18 Jan 2007 10:20:16 -0600 Oldloadr - Don't bother me with the past. I'm embracing Cliff's attitude - only the here and now matters! http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_18_jan.html#comment-55212 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_18_jan.html#comment-55212 Thu, 18 Jan 2007 10:03:51 -0600 John - actually the AF doesn't call them regs, anymore, they are "Instructions" which was introduced by Gen Tony McPeak in the 90s as part of that empowerment thing that was in vogue then. Guess it worked; she sure felt empowered... I'll tell ya, none of my TIs looked like that (whew!). BTW, didn't the Army have a similar situation with the same publication back in the 80s? http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_18_jan.html#comment-55211 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_18_jan.html#comment-55211 Thu, 18 Jan 2007 10:00:27 -0600 posted a followup. (The link for Bill Arkin needs to be fixed, btw :-) )]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_18_jan.html#comment-55209 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_18_jan.html#comment-55209 Thu, 18 Jan 2007 09:49:17 -0600 We always keep a bag open for you and the hamster, Ry. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_18_jan.html#comment-55203 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_18_jan.html#comment-55203 Thu, 18 Jan 2007 08:25:49 -0600 Okay, so I was wrong. Do I still get to keep the stale Cheetos? http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_18_jan.html#comment-55201 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_18_jan.html#comment-55201 Thu, 18 Jan 2007 08:01:19 -0600 Actually, Ry, Dan and I are far more in agreement than disagreement in some respects. We share the opinion that killing off the bad guys (as distinct from killing everything that moves) is what changes the correlations. Kill enough Nazis, the support for Nazism wanes. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_18_jan.html#comment-55198 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_18_jan.html#comment-55198 Thu, 18 Jan 2007 07:33:36 -0600