Comments for H&I* Fires, 17 JAN 2007 We're the Military and Airpower Guys of Jonah Goldberg of National Review Online + a stray we found wandering around looking lost. All original material JHD, BHD, JR, WT, and KA 2003-2007 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_17_jan.html Tue, 23 Sep 2008 18:05:43 Z Movable Type 4.12 en Copyright 2008 http://www.rssboard.org/rss-specification H&I* Fires, 17 JAN 2007 Open post for those with something to share, updated through the day. New, complete posts come in below this one. Note: If trackbacking, please acknowledge this post in your post. That's only polite. [Hey - trackbacks work again!] You're advertising here, we should get an ad at your place... ****************************** I see many pathways to trouble with the Saudis wanting to send troops to Iraq. This may be a time when Mass might need to take a backseat to politics. -------------------------------- Iran claims to have shot down a recon drone according to Xinhua. ----------------------------- Anne Applebaum has a bit in... http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_17_jan.html http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_17_jan.html Wed, 17 Jan 2007 23:57:44 -0600 Comment from ry on 2007-01-19 "Ry - We buy it, we don't buy it....are we ever really going to stop it's propagation?" Well, round up(or its carcinogenic big brother Agent Orange) comes to mind. Defoiliants---we've done wonders in the 30 years since the Fall of Saigon in the realm of defoiliants. The real point is to move the people to something better than just poppies. Poppies only buy the food. To make the country a more on-the-level affair that isn't so easy for the geurillas to 'move amoung the fish'. Legalizing it might just crash the market. So they move to something else that's illegal(and more profitable) and keep the cycle going. Yeah, we can alter the propogation. Check the Cannuckers burning down the pot forests in Afghanistan. It works. The reason it is being done is that it is really profitable in a really poor country. Make doing something else profitable, and safer, you might see a change. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_17_jan.html#comment-55248 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_17_jan.html#comment-55248 Fri, 19 Jan 2007 02:03:56 -0600 Comment from SangerM on 2007-01-18 ]:-p ]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_17_jan.html#comment-55233 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_17_jan.html#comment-55233 Thu, 18 Jan 2007 17:21:54 -0600 Comment from Big Boot of Dissent Crushing on 2007-01-18 See what a difference the emoticon makes? 8^) http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_17_jan.html#comment-55228 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_17_jan.html#comment-55228 Thu, 18 Jan 2007 15:10:52 -0600 Comment from SangerM on 2007-01-18 OK... Being called on the white shirt comment, I feel the need to do something I rarely ever do: Explain and apologize to anyone who may have been offended--even Cliff. I was indeed being snide, but my barb went astray. Simple truth, you can believe or not. In retrospect, I shouldn't have asked the way I did, but at the time, I was really just thinking in terms of my very long familiarity and comfort with Mormons and I did not consider that it might be seen otherwise. I had read Cliff's bio, and I assumed (yes, that too) Cliff was glazing over his "language" studies, using that as a euphemism for missionary work, and that was my way of getting at that... I won't bore with details--or protesteth overmuch--but I will say I am quite familiar with Mormons, the tenets of their faith, and their day-to-day practices. While I have no desire to become Mormon (or any other religion for that matter), I have a great deal of respect for sincere practicing Mormons and for the way they live their lives and care for one another. I really meant no offense. Well, at least not in that direction.... Sincerely, SangerM http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_17_jan.html#comment-55223 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_17_jan.html#comment-55223 Thu, 18 Jan 2007 14:17:51 -0600 Comment from Maggie on 2007-01-18 Chief - I love it! You are good at that whole "killing two birds with one stone" thing aren't you. Ry - We buy it, we don't buy it....are we ever really going to stop it's propagation? Sanger - Is your keyboard bruised now? Great comment! FbL and I discussed Cliff last night and the way he comes off. I think Sanger is too generous with his benefit of the doubt, but it's a reflection of his own good nature (I don't have one of those). I'm just surprised he's from Utah. I didn't realize there were any of his type west of Harvard Square. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_17_jan.html#comment-55208 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_17_jan.html#comment-55208 Thu, 18 Jan 2007 09:45:28 -0600 Comment from BillT on 2007-01-18 vallum fossaque with claymores on the vallum and punjis in the fossa. Patrol the daylights out of the surrounding fields out to max mortar range and set up roving ambushes. It worked fine, as long as it was surrounded by arable land...which is the precipitate in the solution as far as Afghanistan is concerned. ]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_17_jan.html#comment-55194 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_17_jan.html#comment-55194 Thu, 18 Jan 2007 07:03:30 -0600 Comment from John of Argghhh! on 2007-01-18 Sanger was doin' fine 'till that last gratuitous swipe at Mormon on mission... Please rephrase your insults in the form of a comment... http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_17_jan.html#comment-55192 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_17_jan.html#comment-55192 Thu, 18 Jan 2007 06:12:39 -0600 Comment from ry on 2007-01-18 All UncaBill's joshing aside(even if he's only 2/3 kidding) I still have a problem with buying the opium. Like I said, what's to stop Taliban and aQ jackalopes from coming over in the night and saying to the farmer 'Hey, give us 20% or we rape your horses and ride off on your wymens'? Even legalized it still leaves the insurgent integrated to the civilian(the night time visit demanding 20%). I thought the point of COIN was to pare them off from the populace. Tough call. Neither pathway, on its own, seems to do that. Chief, you've actually been over this ground before. Any ideas you care to share with dumb@55 me? http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_17_jan.html#comment-55189 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_17_jan.html#comment-55189 Thu, 18 Jan 2007 03:24:18 -0600 Comment from SangerM on 2007-01-18 ok, ok... I can't help myself. And I HATE it... ******************************************** Cliff, for a direction, try the 2nd star to the left, and straight on 'till forever... As for your question, the answer is .... No. Moreover, your evidence is irrelevant and the debate is meaningless. But if you want to discuss Presidents, lets try the one I voted for twice who perjured himself, and then lied outright to me (and everyone else) about his adultery (it'd be hard to find pronography that abrasive anywhere else in the Congressional Record!)... Or perhaps we could discuss one or two other Democratic Presidents, like FDR, whose administration was _ruthless_ in regards to censorship (but _that_ was a _real_ war, huh?) and who a lot of people believe (with some good reason) had foreknowledge of the Pearl Harbor attack. Or maybe we could talk about LBJ, whom it has been suggested (often by people who use the same sort of twisted specious reasoning you use) had some foreknowledge of JFK's demise. And we really don't need to discuss how LBJ ran things, do we? Wanna talk about censorship and repression of free speech with the FBI violating just about civil liberty with the Administration knowledge and approval? Oh, yeah, and here I almost forgot: we could discuss that little Vietnam thing a Democrat got us into, and the next one made worse.. . Or maybe if that's too coarse, we could talk about Massa Jimmy, the worst President EVER, by any standard used to measure presidential performance. The only good thing about Jimmy Carter was that Reagan followed him. Well, ok, so he helps build houses for poor people when he isn’t engaged in international diplomacy WITHOUT U.S. approval, or comparing Israel to South Africa. Speaking of which, considering the state he's from, one would expect he would know better than to cast stones, dontcha' think? Actually, I expect you would want to engage on all of those, but to be honest, I was just kidding. Really. It's not worth it to me, and I really don't have time to explain why, though if you get back to me around the end of March, I'm sure I'll have time then. And truth be told, after reading your reductionist tribal-mind piece, all I could think of in response was this rather inarticulate tribal response: Blah, blah, blah, blah....Bull$hit. (that's poor-Jewish-kid-from-Philly-tribe talk). Fact is, Cliff, you may be a genuinely nice, intelligent guy seeking sincere and honest debate, but you come off as an overeducated, condescending windbag who is far more impressed with his command of the language and logic than he should be. Unless you actually intended to be insulting, in which case I do apologize for thinking you were a clueless meretricious twit. V/R SangerM BTW, just out of curiosity, did you wear white shirts and black nametags and ride a bicycle everywhere during your 3 years overseas? http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_17_jan.html#comment-55188 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_17_jan.html#comment-55188 Thu, 18 Jan 2007 00:33:39 -0600 Comment from BillT on 2007-01-17 opium poppies, not DAV paper ones. The administrators, properly mollified, will purchase the whole shebang and retire to the teachers' lounge to smoke them, thereby removing themselves from the scene so we can re-introduce the Three Rs and mebbe raise the graduation rate. We use the proceeds to leverage next year's crop so 1. the farmers can purchase surplus Canadian land mines 2. to protect their fields from vermin and 3. frustrate the narQaeda types; 4. we've taken the crop and put it to good use (hey, it ain't like the NJEA's *not* smoking dope already); 5. and the kids are learning something that will enable them to enter institutions of higher learning with something other than a fifth-grade education under their belts. That's a win-win-win-win-win situation...]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_17_jan.html#comment-55186 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_17_jan.html#comment-55186 Wed, 17 Jan 2007 23:48:53 -0600 Comment from John of Argghhh! on 2007-01-17
Why is it taking so long for comments to post?
Because the original blog mechanic screwed up the installation, and when they tried to fix it, they *really* broke it. The new blog mechanic is trying to fix it, but it's tedious, and for some reason, he seems to think his real job and life take precedence... a sentiment with which I am sympathetic. We apologize for the inconvenience. In fact, however, I have farking moderation turned off... but the software does not seem to really *care* what I want. Meaning there is some thread somewhere that is not quite knit.]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_17_jan.html#comment-55183 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_17_jan.html#comment-55183 Wed, 17 Jan 2007 20:13:12 -0600 Comment from Maggie on 2007-01-17 "As a man of honor, I know you will take a second look at my work and the evidence, and give us your final verdict" Does he have to speak so condescendingly? *************************** Meanwhile on the poppy thing....I didn't know we were buying it from Turkey and India. I think that's a great solution. Whether we buy it and use it or buy it and burn it, just buy it. Then we can take the time to change things.]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_17_jan.html#comment-55182 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_17_jan.html#comment-55182 Wed, 17 Jan 2007 19:44:53 -0600 Comment from Oldloadr on 2007-01-17 Why is it taking so long for comments to post? http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_17_jan.html#comment-55181 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_17_jan.html#comment-55181 Wed, 17 Jan 2007 19:34:33 -0600 Comment from Oldloadr on 2007-01-17 Maggie - got to give credit where due. John - is Cliff a veteran/retiree? He seems to think he knows a lot about the inner workings of the puzzle palace through-out the years. Seems to me that it was during the Clinton administration was the only time in my 32 year association with the armed forces that anybody in uniform was publicly punished for dissent/disagreement/disparaging… Aditionally, I remember an AF chief of staff and AF Secretary who resigned rather than punish the wrong person for the Kohbar tower bombing as they were pressured to do by Slick Willy’s SecDef. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_17_jan.html#comment-55178 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_17_jan.html#comment-55178 Wed, 17 Jan 2007 18:54:48 -0600 Comment from Instapilot on 2007-01-17 Cliff, Didn't your post sort of refute your own argument, or did I miss something? Instapilot http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_17_jan.html#comment-55177 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_17_jan.html#comment-55177 Wed, 17 Jan 2007 18:51:56 -0600 Comment from BillT on 2007-01-17 Stingray program. Major-league hush-hush until 1993 or so, when the usual leaks from the usual place sparked the usual uproar: "It uses a laser to blind the seeker?" "Yes, sir." "That's against the Geneva Convention. You can't field weapons that cause blindness." "Uhhh, sir? That section in the Protocols refers to weapons designed to blind *people*..." "You're quibbling. Tube it and spend the money on Consideration of Others programmed texts and give them to the troops." And civil airliners may indeed have been downed by MANPADs (okay, okay -- MAN Portable Air Defense) -- over Africa. Even given the lousy aircraft maintenance, spotty ATC radio commo, nonexistent radar coverage and tenth-rate weather forecasting, airliners transiting western African airspace in the '80s were vanishing at about twice the expected loss rate. If Angola ever burns down, I'll bet they'll find a lot of aluminum scrap in the central plateau... ]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_17_jan.html#comment-55176 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_17_jan.html#comment-55176 Wed, 17 Jan 2007 18:43:51 -0600 Comment from afsister on 2007-01-17 Steve, John added comment moderation... it's taking for-evah for comments to show up. *raises hairy eyebrow at The Armorer* http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_17_jan.html#comment-55174 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_17_jan.html#comment-55174 Wed, 17 Jan 2007 18:40:43 -0600 Comment from cliff on 2007-01-17 building the case against your response to the accusation that the Bush administration squashes dissent (including Military) As a man of honor, I know you will take a second look at my work and the evidence, and give us your final verdict. Is the Bush administration guilty of the greatest effort to squish dissent in modern history or not? Unless of course you are OK with censorship inside the civilian government, retired military as well as free speech? I need some direction here.]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_17_jan.html#comment-55172 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_17_jan.html#comment-55172 Wed, 17 Jan 2007 18:11:14 -0600 Comment from Maggie on 2007-01-17 "Maggie is right..." MMMMM, those are some my favorite words! Thanks, baby!]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_17_jan.html#comment-55169 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_17_jan.html#comment-55169 Wed, 17 Jan 2007 17:14:47 -0600 Comment from KCSteve on 2007-01-17 now they all show up!]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_17_jan.html#comment-55164 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_17_jan.html#comment-55164 Wed, 17 Jan 2007 16:07:30 -0600 Comment from KCSteve on 2007-01-17 want that opium and farmers who will grow the poppies (whether they really want to or not). Therefore the only solution is to make it so there are no opium poppies. I don't care if the 'poppy blight' kills 'em or just horks up the opium production but from what I can see it'll take either bio-war or lots of daisy cutters to 'solve' the problem and the daisy cutters are even worse than the bio-war. On a totally unrelated note, the United States Knife & Tool Association has come on line. Name was changed to the friendlier and more focused KnifeRights.org Click on over and check it out.]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_17_jan.html#comment-55162 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_17_jan.html#comment-55162 Wed, 17 Jan 2007 14:18:48 -0600 Comment from Wild Thing on 2007-01-17 "Adding to the confusion about all this is the fact that we have allowed Afghanistan and Iraq to be treated as two separate wars, rather than campaigns in a single, unified war." I agree 100% with what you said. Our leaders messed up big time by seperating the two. ]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_17_jan.html#comment-55156 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_17_jan.html#comment-55156 Wed, 17 Jan 2007 12:47:06 -0600 Comment from Justthisguy on 2007-01-17 Well, as some have written, "Reality is for those who can't handle drugs!" Back in my salad days, I betcha I coulda managed the BZ weirdness, and still prolly shot *most* of my ammo at the enemy! Snork. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_17_jan.html#comment-55155 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_17_jan.html#comment-55155 Wed, 17 Jan 2007 12:38:58 -0600 Comment from KCSteve on 2007-01-17 want that money and farmers who will grow the poppies (whether they really want to or not). Some sort of poppy blight is the only way to stop it. Doesn't have to kill the flowers, just the opium. Not a great solution, but it would work. On a totally unrelated note, the United States Knife & Tool Association has come on line. Name was changed to the friendlier and more focused KnifeRights.org Click on over and check it out.]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_17_jan.html#comment-55152 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_17_jan.html#comment-55152 Wed, 17 Jan 2007 11:43:41 -0600 Comment from KCSteve on 2007-01-17 KnifeRights.org ]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_17_jan.html#comment-55151 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_17_jan.html#comment-55151 Wed, 17 Jan 2007 11:39:12 -0600 Comment from wolfwalker on 2007-01-17 Can anyone imagine what *this Congress* would have done after Kasserine, and the misery that was Guadalcanal? I'm something of an amateur historian on the Second Big One. The news cycle from front line to Washington was days or weeks; the cycle from front line to civilian news agencies was often even longer. There was plenty of opportunity to apply censorship. And numerous first-hand witnesses have agreed that the censorship was necessary. One theme that crops up repeatedly in the memoirs of people who were there is "if the American people had known how incompetently the war was being run, the home front would've collapsed." During Guadalcanal, New Zealand and Australian work unions refused to work in bad weather, or work unpaid overtime. As a result, while American Marines were dying for want of ammo and supplies, huge stacks of those same supplies were lying around in rear-area ports. So nevermind what this Congress would have done back then. What would that Congress have done, if they'd had the same next-day or even same-day news cycle from battlefield that we have today? ]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_17_jan.html#comment-55150 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_17_jan.html#comment-55150 Wed, 17 Jan 2007 10:44:01 -0600 Comment from Damian on 2007-01-17 had the same questions as you about the poppy fields (see the comments). Hopefully we're not both dumb, but if we are, it's nice to have company. ;) Legalization also opens up another can of worms for the Afghan gov't: if they legalize it, they'll likely warehouse the raw product, process it, and warehouse the processed product. All of which would have to be secured, otherwise the Taliban simply knocks over the gov't site and takes what they want. That approach even saves the bad guys the trouble of doing all the work themselves and it hurts the Afghan gov't even more than the current situation because if legal product is stolen, the gov't has actually invested in the product and suffers a financial loss. Double whammy. I don't think legalization is a bad solution, but I do think it's a far more complicated one than many proponents would have us believe.]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_17_jan.html#comment-55145 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_17_jan.html#comment-55145 Wed, 17 Jan 2007 09:36:43 -0600 Comment from Oldloadr on 2007-01-17 Maggie is right about the probabilty that Watada planned the whole thing before he raised his right hand and lied. Considering the family history, I would certainly never expect a true warrior to issue from Bob Watada's loins. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_17_jan.html#comment-55142 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_17_jan.html#comment-55142 Wed, 17 Jan 2007 09:16:51 -0600 Comment from John of Argghhh! on 2007-01-17 Adding to the confusion about all this is the fact that we have allowed Afghanistan and Iraq to be treated as two separate wars, rather than campaigns in a single, unified war. And that's the fault of the leadership, Presidential, and Congressional. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_17_jan.html#comment-55141 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_17_jan.html#comment-55141 Wed, 17 Jan 2007 09:02:15 -0600 Comment from Maggie on 2007-01-17 Bob Watada, former executive director of the state Campaign Spending Commission and his son's former Little League baseball coach, chose not to fight in the Vietnam War after his brother died during the Korean War more than four decades ago. Instead, he went to Peru and served in the Peace Corps." There are those who feel the young Watada joining the military was a plot to cause this very story in the media. Seems a long way to go to protest the war, but hey, some people are crazy.]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_17_jan.html#comment-55138 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_17_jan.html#comment-55138 Wed, 17 Jan 2007 08:36:25 -0600 Comment from AFSister on 2007-01-17 My guess is that Watada feels the war in AFG was justified, because it had to do with getting rid of Al Qaeda... but the war in Iraq wasn't justified because it had to do with getting rid of Saddam. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_17_jan.html#comment-55137 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_17_jan.html#comment-55137 Wed, 17 Jan 2007 08:35:33 -0600 Comment from Oldloadr on 2007-01-17 Cricket - You know that, and I know that but the "L-T" is following the same rhetoric and mis-guided logic that the Dems in congress have followed, i.e. Afghanistan is part of the GWOT, but Iraq is "W's" personal war for oil, or family vendetta or whatever their imaginary motive of the week is. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_17_jan.html#comment-55136 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_17_jan.html#comment-55136 Wed, 17 Jan 2007 08:24:08 -0600 Comment from Cricket on 2007-01-17 So Lt. Watada wants to serve in Afghanistan? What is the difference, pray tell? Isn't one battlefield very much like another? Didn't Armorer mention something about Iraq being an extension of Afghanistan? If I am mistaken, please correct me and provide the context. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_17_jan.html#comment-55131 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/hi_fires_17_jan.html#comment-55131 Wed, 17 Jan 2007 06:54:01 -0600