We're the Military and Airpower Guys of Jonah Goldberg of National Review Online + a stray we found wandering around looking lost. All original material JHD, BHD, JR, WT, and KA 2003-2010 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/contractors_in.html Fri, 06 Jan 2012 18:39:23 Z Movable Type 4.12 en Copyright 2012 http://www.rssboard.org/rss-specification Remember this discussion with Cliff from OneUtah? The contractor discussion? There's an OpEd in today's LA Times that decries the situation, and pretty much, I'm guessing, from a perspective that would match Cliff's. [As always, you should read the whole thing, and not just the quotes I've chosen. You view might differ from mine if you have the whole context] From Iraq and Afghanistan to the hurricane-ravaged streets of New Orleans to meetings with Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger about responding to disasters in California, Blackwater now envisions itself as the FedEx of defense and homeland security operations. Such power in the... http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/contractors_in.html http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/contractors_in.html Thu, 25 Jan 2007 07:36:23 -0600 Oh, and just to incur the wrath of Princess Crabby: I can't stand '24' either. Blech. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/contractors_in.html#comment-55789 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/contractors_in.html#comment-55789 Fri, 26 Jan 2007 14:14:30 -0600 this 'it needs no argument' tone. Best to just leave it alone and go our seperate ways since we're now 'arguing religion' since Cliff can't find his facts(and nobody else is linking either). ]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/contractors_in.html#comment-55771 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/contractors_in.html#comment-55771 Fri, 26 Jan 2007 11:57:23 -0600 Cliff: that's a funny video. ha ha. Americans are such tools! no, sorry, my friend. i didn't happen to be in town the day they were filming that. i'm afraid that my having the knowledge base to correctly answer each of the questions posed by the interviewer would probably not make for very riveting entertainment. maybe if i jazzed up my answers a bit, and responded in a couple different foreign languages, maybe then they might put in on the telly. hmm. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/contractors_in.html#comment-55749 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/contractors_in.html#comment-55749 Fri, 26 Jan 2007 08:03:49 -0600 Invasion of the Body Snatchers." Just go to sleep. Like Dana Wynter. Your pod's ready. Just go to sleep. Don't worry. I'd explain it to you, but it's classified. This is so typically left. You guys are here arguing real life experience and facts. It's just minutiae. ]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/contractors_in.html#comment-55725 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/contractors_in.html#comment-55725 Thu, 25 Jan 2007 23:47:52 -0600 Cliff, as you wish. But simply continuing a process begun in the 1980's *is not* a personal conspiracy on the part of this administration. It is more simply... inertia. Occam's Razor. Just because you *want* it to be a venal and meticulously planned conspiracy doesn't make it one. Any more than Whitewater. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/contractors_in.html#comment-55715 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/contractors_in.html#comment-55715 Thu, 25 Jan 2007 20:49:04 -0600 John, You may call it changing the terms of the argument. I disagree. I have been very clear. This administration is screwing you and me and America for the benefit of the very rich. You will not get that from reading my words, but you (I hope, sooner than later) will wake up in the middle of the night and "get it." On the next morning, you will have clarity and we will not need to debate minutiae. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/contractors_in.html#comment-55711 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/contractors_in.html#comment-55711 Thu, 25 Jan 2007 19:58:19 -0600 Cliff - you keep changing the terms of the argument. From my perspective, where I sit in all of this - it's not my place to determine if the info should or should not be classified. If I had access to it, I could probably glean why it is (or share your bafflement) but, since I don't know why it's classified, I can't answer that question. And, I don't know where the $8 billion is. None of that specifically refutes anything I've said, any more than it supports it. It doesn't mean I'm not interested, it just means... I don't know. And neither do you. Some of your questions are better aimed at people who can find out, such as... oh, Congress. But flailing at me with it isn't useful discussion, it's just playing tag or stump the chump - neither of which is useful to advancing the issue. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/contractors_in.html#comment-55705 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/contractors_in.html#comment-55705 Thu, 25 Jan 2007 18:05:52 -0600 in this video?]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/contractors_in.html#comment-55703 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/contractors_in.html#comment-55703 Thu, 25 Jan 2007 17:56:00 -0600 John, All fine and good except: 1. Why should that information be classified? 2. Where is the $8 billion missing since Bremer? (i.e. do you really think anyone even knows what the real costs are?) http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/contractors_in.html#comment-55702 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/contractors_in.html#comment-55702 Thu, 25 Jan 2007 17:35:26 -0600 Cliff: nice red herring with that video. i, myself, frequently consult anesthesiologists who are on long term sabbatical who spent 3 months in the British zone around Basra when i'm looking for answers to questions regarding American practices over a three or four year period... i find them so much more informative than the personal experiences of people actually trained in the subject at hand who have spent a year on site. (John, thx for the moderation. perhaps my typing got ahead of my own thought process). http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/contractors_in.html#comment-55701 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/contractors_in.html#comment-55701 Thu, 25 Jan 2007 17:33:42 -0600 Cliff - 1. Making points and then retreating behind "it's classified" is poor argumentation. If you know the information, then you are in possession of classified information. Since I assume you are not a "covered person" (i.e., you haven't signed a non-disclosure agreement) then you could conceiveably trot that information out into the open. Lord knows, the NYT does. Therefore, if you do *not* have access to that information, then you are arguing from hearsay. Not useful in this context. 2. I might have the requisite clearance for that information, but I certainly do not have any plausible 'need to know' - therefore I would most likely *not* be given access to that info. 3. If I *did* get access to that information... you would never know. Because it would be illegal for me to tell you - not only tell you what the info was (or try to ghost it in argument) but actually technically illegal for me to tell you that I have access to/know. 4. I like my clearance. It's very useful. I will not abuse it to score points on a blog. Which would violate my other rules - don't blog work, and don't blog who I work for, in any detail anyway. There is much that is not discussed on my blog because of that. Oh well. I'm not a disgruntled federal employee of the CIA or State Department, who apparently function under different rules regarding classified material than the paperwork I signed. So, whether what you say is true or not, essentially can't be verified in this forum. We'll have to choose a different aspect of the topic. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/contractors_in.html#comment-55698 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/contractors_in.html#comment-55698 Thu, 25 Jan 2007 17:22:58 -0600 Actually, I just finished listening to about 80% of it. She trots out every leftist cliche on Iraq, most of which have been debunked (i.e. the white phosphorous story). Cliff, you're doing a bait-and-switch here, and your manner of putting forth your "points" or information is not giving you a lot of credibility. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/contractors_in.html#comment-55696 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/contractors_in.html#comment-55696 Thu, 25 Jan 2007 17:14:40 -0600 btw: this congressional testimony raises a much more important issue. From Utube's description of the video: Dr. Wasfi described her experience in Iraq and discussed the life of Iraqis under occupation on April 27, 2006 in Washington, DC. I don't have time to listen to the whole thing, but that little blurb from the description makes me think there are more recent and relevant descirptions of life in Iraq TODAY than that video.]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/contractors_in.html#comment-55695 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/contractors_in.html#comment-55695 Thu, 25 Jan 2007 17:05:35 -0600 this congressional testimony raises a much more important issue.]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/contractors_in.html#comment-55693 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/contractors_in.html#comment-55693 Thu, 25 Jan 2007 16:45:51 -0600 Yikes. I'm sensing a little less patience among the Denizens this go-around... But I'm enjoying the discussion for the education it's giving me and the old tidbits of knowledge it's stirring in my mind. Thanks! http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/contractors_in.html#comment-55692 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/contractors_in.html#comment-55692 Thu, 25 Jan 2007 16:30:41 -0600 Cliff: your counter-points disposed of in sequence. DFAC: show me your numbers that will prove definitively that a contracted service that hires fully functional people who already have the requisite training and long term expertise isn't cheaper than the Army paying to find a new recruit, get him/her inducted, trained, promoted, and worked for 20 years to a level of expertise were they could run such an operation. Executive Protection: what, do you think every American Ambassador running around the world has a squad of Marines and a tracked vehicle dedicated solely to thier protection?? contracting out a simple service for close-in protection when/where/as needed, and having that "on-call", without incurring the salary / training / pension /housing expense of permanently maintaining the personnel to do it ourselves in the military is probably a close second to chow on the "much more affordable" scale of contracted operations. it's the same logic Lincoln used in hiring Pinkertons to do it rather than have a cavalry regiment follow him around. have you heard of the East India Company? i suppose you believe that was a stupid way to do things also. go back down the end of the bar and sit on your regular stool next to Norm and i'll have Carla bring ya another pint. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/contractors_in.html#comment-55689 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/contractors_in.html#comment-55689 Thu, 25 Jan 2007 16:16:07 -0600 Just a reminder, folks - argue the points, not the personalities. Cliff - to make things easier - do you already have links to studies that show it's cheaper for the Army to do it's own food-service in-house? Ones that take into account end-strength limits and the impacts therein? The Army got out of large scale food service not so much because it wanted to, but because of end-strength restrictions (which are more budget-driven than they are strategy driven). By giving up cooks, they could get infantry and MP and Engineer spaces. I know about this in that respect, one of my addtional duties as a DIVARTY log weenie was Dining Facility Officer, as well as I commanded when we still *had* a signifcant company-level food service capacity and I lived through this conversion. You are on stronger ground (though State has been using contract security longer than I think you are aware) when you talk security contracting, but I'd really like to see your discussion of food service in the context of the above. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/contractors_in.html#comment-55688 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/contractors_in.html#comment-55688 Thu, 25 Jan 2007 15:57:34 -0600 Yo MajMike, If you do a little research, I think you will find your statment that private contractors can do dining cheaper is not only dead wrong, its WAY DEAD WRONG. Do the research if you can, and get back to us. I also don't by the "Executive Protection" argument. I'm not even sure how its relevant. Are you suggesting tax payers should pay for "Executive Protection" in defense of our country? Whats the twisted logic there? http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/contractors_in.html#comment-55687 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/contractors_in.html#comment-55687 Thu, 25 Jan 2007 15:37:30 -0600 are veterans. Maybe John will show you the dialogue we had some time back about how most of us old farts would rather have put our uniforms back on, but the DoD didn’t see it that way and chose to pay the big bucks for a more temporary arrangement mostly to people who already have a military pension. Of course, I’m thinking that before it became fashionable to shout “support our troops” slogans, you may have been one of those on the left who didn’t want to pay us, at all…]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/contractors_in.html#comment-55686 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/contractors_in.html#comment-55686 Thu, 25 Jan 2007 15:37:01 -0600 Ry. I'm a simple girl. WHAT IN THE WORLD ARE YOU TRYING TO SAY, AND WHO ARE YOU SAYING IT TO? http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/contractors_in.html#comment-55685 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/contractors_in.html#comment-55685 Thu, 25 Jan 2007 14:41:52 -0600 Yawn. This is about as principled and as long lasting as the thought expressed on the bumpersticker I saw this morning. "My car gets 35 mpg. Who's the patriot now?" Yawn. I'll come back and check in 8 years to see if you're still beating this same drum. Until then it's just the buzzing of flies. Some of us have been pushing for better treatment for years and resent loud upstarts who know even less than us getting in our grill all indignant like because we aren't moved by their current fashionable crusade. Appreciate the ardor, but stow the smug selfrighteousness. It isn't helping. Nice wedge issue by the way. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/contractors_in.html#comment-55684 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/contractors_in.html#comment-55684 Thu, 25 Jan 2007 14:04:28 -0600 Last night I found myself at a meeting of the minds. I'm a Government Liason for my local Red Cross chapter. Our job during disasters is to coordinate Red Cross services with the local government (police, fire, politicians, Dept of Homeland Security, FBI, CIA- whoever is involved; it really doesn't matter). The meeting was held at the new emergency ops center for the county... and let me tell, it was impressive as HELL. I was blown away by the facility. I was equally blown away by the resume's of those around me. To my right was a city council member; to my left, a retired city safety planner and chemicals expert. Next to her, a lawyer/EMT/ex-Washington DC cop. As we moved around the table, people were saying things like "I own my own safety company"; "I'm a judge"; "I head the local air helicopter service"; "I used to be the Mayor of Cincinnati"; "I'm on the FAA's board of emergency management advisors". I was sat there thinking "How in the HECK did I fit in?!?!?!?" which was alternated with "WHOA. We've got a HUGE knowledge base here in these 10 people". The CRC is designed to take advantage of citizens like the ones I was with last night- people who have an incredible amount of public and national safety knowledge but are "ordinary" citizens and not members of the US military. Every person at that table last night could sit in on a major US disaster response team and make a huge difference- every last one of us. But since our committee is local, that knowledge base will stay within our borders, even though it could be useful all over the country. The CRC will do that. People pulled into the CRC will take their normal, everyday talents and put them to use all over the country in ways we've never had before. I am REALLY looking forward to this project coming together. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/contractors_in.html#comment-55683 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/contractors_in.html#comment-55683 Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:41:23 -0600 Cliff: did i mention "operate a Dining Facility"? no doubt, Army Mess Daddies produce some of the finest chow i have ever had the pleasure of scarfing down. and Army cooks quite frequently compete (and win) in major international chef events. but if a bunch of civilian contractors can do it cheaper (in a garrison or Enduring Base environment), why in hell would i willingly trade the military headcount necessary to get one more soldier cooking instead of having that slot for a soldier patrolling? mmmm.... KBR had us a nice little DFAC (1st one north of the Iraqi border)... good chow... did i mention that head chef for the operation was a retired Army cook (SFC) who had cooked me up the finest cream chip beef to be had on either side of the East/West German border? yummy. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/contractors_in.html#comment-55681 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/contractors_in.html#comment-55681 Thu, 25 Jan 2007 12:46:55 -0600 Cliff: i can think of one job that contractors can do better than the military, right off the top of my head. it's called "Executive Protection". it's a corporate function. like "Corporate Aviation", this is a service that corporations sometimes bring inside for efficiency, flexibility, and any other number of perfectly valid corporate reasons. now tell me this Cliff: does the function of providing local security of an ambassador look more like a combination of "Executive Protection" and "Corporate Aviation", or more like "Moving Flank Guard of a Main Body"? ..because if it looks more like "Moving Flank Guard of a Main Body" to you, than you either don't understand military combat operations, or we've got a whole mess of re-training the entire mil force structure to do in order to accommodate that particular task. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/contractors_in.html#comment-55680 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/contractors_in.html#comment-55680 Thu, 25 Jan 2007 12:38:43 -0600 Um, Cliff - remember, I *am* one of those war-profiteers, the government has chosen not to recall me despite my volunteering for such, they prefer to pay to get my skills and talents this way, without raising my retired pay... The CRC would be another such venue for getting back those skills. At the same time, I currently sit idle, unbillable, because the government is currently exercising the other side of the contracting coin - they had government civilians in jobs based on reimbursable work, and when that funding got pulled to pay for current bills (i.e., the surge) the chose to direct the money that *was* paying for me to pay for them. It's just not as simple as you want to make it. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/contractors_in.html#comment-55678 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/contractors_in.html#comment-55678 Thu, 25 Jan 2007 12:22:51 -0600 "gee, I wish I had a critical skill." You do, Maggie.... but it's not a government approved recreational activity, no matter how much you argue that pole-dancing is theraputic. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/contractors_in.html#comment-55677 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/contractors_in.html#comment-55677 Thu, 25 Jan 2007 12:01:24 -0600 screed? On the Civilian Reserve Corps.....gee, I wish I had a critical skill.]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/contractors_in.html#comment-55676 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/contractors_in.html#comment-55676 Thu, 25 Jan 2007 11:47:52 -0600 John, While I appreciate the you decision to associate with my previous comments on private contractors and private SECURITY forces, I would ask you and you readers to look inward, and investigate your knee jerk defense reaction initially. No look beyond the fundamental wrongness of paying non-military to "do military" and think about the corporate forces at work behind the scenes. This is the plantation mentality, and we regular folks are being shoved further down and out. Imagine what we could have done with the billions being WASTED on war profiteers - for our vets - scholarships, health care, HELP THE FAMILIES, RAISE THEIR PAY. Can you think of one job the MIL-contractors can do better that the military? I am not your enemy. I am for the troops and against the rich white idiots screwing this country hard. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/contractors_in.html#comment-55674 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/contractors_in.html#comment-55674 Thu, 25 Jan 2007 10:41:58 -0600 http://nws.cgaux.org/visitors/ps_visitor/index.html]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/contractors_in.html#comment-55673 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/contractors_in.html#comment-55673 Thu, 25 Jan 2007 10:33:49 -0600 I have a friend who was in the Marine's for 10 years, got out due to a variety of reasons, but wanted back in the fight. He joined Blackwater and just got back from a 6 month tour doing security. He was injured once when he convoy was attacked and his vehicle hit an IED. He made more in those 6 months than he did for the past several years combined. Due to waining public support of the war, and a general distaste for his own blood, he's decided not to continue employment with Blackwater now that he's back in the States. It's scary how much they pay these men to do the same job our Marines and Soldiers are doing. It's no wonder our boys are so tempted to leave the service and join Blackwater and similar outfits. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/contractors_in.html#comment-55671 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/01/contractors_in.html#comment-55671 Thu, 25 Jan 2007 09:44:51 -0600