This is for Jack... sorta.

ITM speaks for me. Islam is a violent religion of conversion. If you look at other religions throughout time, I don't think you'll find any others who so violently promote their religion. "Death to the infidels" seems to be the recurring theme for believers of Islam. You know, Mormons have a belief that you can't get to the highest level of heaven unless all of your ancestors are also Mormon. But I've never heard of any Mormons converting relatives by violent measures. We all believe that our religion is the "right" one- even those who DON'T have a religion. We all have our reasons for our beliefs... and I express mine to someone who disagrees, I would hope they wouldn't kill me over my transgression. People of Islamic faiths don't seem to have that luxury these days. I wish they would go back to the Muslim belief of peace, and non-violence.

"The issue is - do we have to let/suffer Islam going through that, too? Or could we just short-circuit it?" It's not like they haven't already tried it, century after century, with varying degrees of success. I've made the argument myself, that Christianity was spread by the sword, as well as by more surreptitious manners, including merely populating non-Christian areas (a practice that I think Islam is picking up on, as well). The big point is, this is the 21st century. There is no place for this kind of conquest in the modern world. Christianity evolved, and most of us think this is a good thing. A few isolated fundamentalists would disagree, but they don't have functional militia backing them up and controlling governments and going out into the world still trying to convert the masses at swordpoint. The rest of the Christian world would not allow it. It is long past time for Islam to evolve, too--to modernize and accept that human beings must be free to make their own choices. So, no--I don't agree that they must be allowed to have their turn at it. It's time to short-circuit.

The difference is that although both religions are older than dirt (just ask Bill- God did give him the recipe for mud, ya know) *sigh* It was vice-versa. He made the dirt and I figgered out a use for it. And mud is quite useful--ask any DI... But if Islamic people would examine history, they'd see that violent religious clashes do not result in conversion- they result in hatred and resentment. Unfortunately, history is written by the victors, and Muslim histories justify the bloodletting and forcible conversions by citing the hundred or so Suras in the Koran (or Qur'an, if you prefer the PC spelling, or القرآن, if you're just back from the sandbox) calling for Muslims to spread Islam using those very tactics. And Islam took the long view. Swordpoint conversion usually didn't produce many loyal adherents among those immediately converted, but after four generations, the descendants were just as Muslim as the ones who conquered their great-grandparents. The horror faded into history when the conquered generation did, leaving only folk-tales to be told in between the mezzuin's calls to prayer...

I got this link from Random Jottings (www.randomjottings.net). www.ignatiusinsight.com/features2006/schall_regensburg_sept06.asp Very, VERY interesting reading and, to me, the last word. But then I had my own opinions-some of the few I've taken precious time to post lately... V/R

There is a distinct difference that you're not getting into John, unfairly, and neither is Alan for that matter(hmph). Judaism and Christianity started out 'slave religions'. Christianity became muscular when Augustine took it up as the Roman state religion. For 200 years(I think, my ancient history sux), Christianity was a minority religion that literally did spread itself by cranks on a corner type tactics. When the religion became and empire it changed. It's no longer both and empire and a religion anymore. Nationalism took care of that. No longer is there a 'Christendom' is there? NOw we talk of an Anglosphere or "The West"---language and ideas, not religion. Is that true the other way? Islam started as a warriors religion. The Cheif can back me on this, as can Herr Low Intesity Conlfict(who is who taught me this bit of history. And I'm not sure Christianity had anything quite like the Janissaries.) It still is thought of as an empire by some of its adherrents. Not same-same between Christianity and Islam as many try to make it out. Now don't think I'm all for bashing Islam, lots of Moslems are way cool people by my standards while some are pure jackals. Nope. Hinduism once was a warrior religion, or sects of it were. Though the religion hasn't changed dogmatically it isn't innayouface. Why is that? Enquiring minds want to know.

Here iw what the Cookie Crumb's Chaplain has to say about Islam: http://www.fathercorapi.com/moon.aspx