We're the Military and Airpower Guys of Jonah Goldberg of National Review Online + a stray we found wandering around looking lost. All original material JHD, BHD, JR, WT, and KA 2003-2007 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2006/09/sigh_oh_no_not_again.html Sun, 03 Aug 2008 16:53:04 Z Movable Type 4.12 en Copyright 2008 http://www.rssboard.org/rss-specification Just as in "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy," I find myself in this dilemma: Curiously enough, the only thing that went through the mind of the bowl of petunias as it fell was Oh no, not again. Many people have speculated that if we knew exactly why the bowl of petunias had thought that we would know a lot more about the nature of the universe than we do now. I just had an "Oh no, not again" moment. This time regarding the USAF/Guys on the Ground Of Any Army and their liaison (or the whole system) for working... http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2006/09/sigh_oh_no_not_again.html http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2006/09/sigh_oh_no_not_again.html Tue, 05 Sep 2006 11:53:40 -0600 Might have tricky to get visual confirmation in a misty, mountainous environment. You're right, that's quite possible. So what's the default at that point? Fire anyhow? Lay off and reconfirm coordinates? RTB? These guys are in uniform, so I know there's a procedure - what is it? And was it followed? After the fiasco in April 2002 with Schmidt and Umbach disregarding procedure and disobeying their controller's orders, I can't take it on faith anymore that the pilots didn't screw up. I'm not rushing to judgement, but I'm not inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt on this one either.]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2006/09/sigh_oh_no_not_again.html#comment-50111 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2006/09/sigh_oh_no_not_again.html#comment-50111 Wed, 06 Sep 2006 10:06:04 -0600 David - was that about *this* incident or the one a month or so ago, where troops were knocked about but only one slightly injured? Regardless - it shows that Allied Air/Ground support needs to be looked at closely. I have to make this observation - but, AFAIK, Marine pilots don't have near the problem working with their guys - which isn't quite the slam on the AF it sounds like, as it is a suggestion that if you are going to be getting Close Air, you need the level of training and integration that the Marines have. But on a completely unrelated note - sign me up for CAMRA! (click the DWMF link and look at the page) http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2006/09/sigh_oh_no_not_again.html#comment-50092 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2006/09/sigh_oh_no_not_again.html#comment-50092 Wed, 06 Sep 2006 06:13:26 -0600 I heard about this on the Canadian Forces Network radio in Europe. Sounds to me like the controller on the ground gave the A10 pilot the wrong set of GPS coordinates. Mixed up those of the target with the troops to be supported. Might have tricky to get visual confirmation in a misty, mountainous environment. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2006/09/sigh_oh_no_not_again.html#comment-50089 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2006/09/sigh_oh_no_not_again.html#comment-50089 Wed, 06 Sep 2006 03:05:10 -0600 ....not only could you be jumping the gun, but you're also very eager to get your comment out...twice. darn echo. In all honesty though, I agree with you. I'm anxious to see how this all plays out. At least it's not being covered up though. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2006/09/sigh_oh_no_not_again.html#comment-50072 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2006/09/sigh_oh_no_not_again.html#comment-50072 Tue, 05 Sep 2006 14:31:55 -0600 with my bud Abthorpe on this: It's hard to imagine, however, how a pilot might have mistaken Canadian LAV-3 armoured vehicles for a cluster of insurgents, Major Abthorpe said. "They're supposed to make visual contact," he said. "The LAVs were out on an exposed open slope, so what actually happened is hard to say. . . . Confusion, chaos, smoke on the battlefield, early morning mist, and everything like that all probably played a factor." How do you mistake a cluster of armoured vehicles used extensively by your main ally in this area for Taliban? Not only do they not operate any LAVIII's, they don't have anything even close. I understand it's a "complex geometry," as John says. I'm just really frustrated - the preliminary details of this suggest more than just a garden-variety mistake. Part of me actually hopes it was the Canadian soldier controlling the A-10s from the ground who screwed up instead of the pilots - I'm sick of hearing about "cowboy Americans" in the Canadian press, over backyard fences, and around water-coolers at work, like somehow human error is limited to USAF pilots. But...how the hell do you mistake a bunch of LAVIIIs in the open for Taliban yahoos with AK-47s? I'm having a tough time with this one. ]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2006/09/sigh_oh_no_not_again.html#comment-50071 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2006/09/sigh_oh_no_not_again.html#comment-50071 Tue, 05 Sep 2006 13:35:33 -0600 with my bud Abthorpe on this: It's hard to imagine, however, how a pilot might have mistaken Canadian LAV-3 armoured vehicles for a cluster of insurgents, Major Abthorpe said. "They're supposed to make visual contact," he said. "The LAVs were out on an exposed open slope, so what actually happened is hard to say. . . . Confusion, chaos, smoke on the battlefield, early morning mist, and everything like that all probably played a factor." How do you mistake a cluster of armoured vehicles used extensively by your main ally in this area for Taliban? Not only do they not operate any LAVIII's, they don't have anything even close. I understand it's a "complex geometry," as John says. I'm just really frustrated - the preliminary details of this suggest more than just a garden-variety mistake. Part of me actually hopes it was the Canadian soldier controlling the A-10s from the ground who screwed up instead of the pilots - I'm sick of hearing about "cowboy Americans" in the Canadian press, over backyard fences, and around water-coolers at work, like somehow human error is limited to USAF pilots. But...how the hell do you mistake a bunch of LAVIIIs in the open for Taliban yahoos with AK-47s? I'm having a tough time with this one. ]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2006/09/sigh_oh_no_not_again.html#comment-50070 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2006/09/sigh_oh_no_not_again.html#comment-50070 Tue, 05 Sep 2006 13:35:27 -0600