We're the Military and Airpower Guys of Jonah Goldberg of National Review Online + a stray we found wandering around looking lost. All original material JHD, BHD, JR, WT, and KA 2003-2007 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2006/03/persons_of_size_in_the_army.html Thu, 26 Jun 2008 03:21:55 Z Movable Type 4.12 en Copyright 2008 http://www.rssboard.org/rss-specification From an Army Captain who recently handed over command: How's this for messed up? Army fatties, rejoice! This is, IMO, completely retarded. I can only guess that they're having too many course failures and/or turnbacks for failing to meet ht/wt and/or APFT standards, possibly connected to the difficulty of doing PT (especially running) during extended deployments. And I'm sure a lot of soldiers and NCOs come back from deployment overdue for some school or other, and get shipped to the next available class, without much of a chance to get back in shape. Of course, my solution to this would... http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2006/03/persons_of_size_in_the_army.html http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2006/03/persons_of_size_in_the_army.html Fri, 24 Mar 2006 05:50:13 -0600 this memo seems kind of fishy because i have been looking for the message and i can find prove of it. let me expalin all alaract messages have a number for example "alaract 145/2005" this message does not have one. if this message is real it should have one. milper does not have it either. if some hooah hooah soldier can find it please pos so every one can see that it is a true message not something a fattie post it to get to go to ncoes http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2006/03/persons_of_size_in_the_army.html#comment-43189 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2006/03/persons_of_size_in_the_army.html#comment-43189 Tue, 28 Mar 2006 16:45:10 -0600 I hate to hear about poor oppressed overweight Soldiers. The Army deploys with more snivel gear than weapons. Their camps are havens of luxury. I have many fond memories of hitting the Army's camps to get good chow, a movie, a hot shower, etc. No time/opportunity to PT? That's pretty far from the mark. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2006/03/persons_of_size_in_the_army.html#comment-43091 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2006/03/persons_of_size_in_the_army.html#comment-43091 Sun, 26 Mar 2006 06:00:05 -0600 MAJMike, when I was a young Captain, we had a DIVARTY commander who was a pencil-necked, sunken-chested, marathon-running geek who assumed that because he could eat three plates of spaghetti and not gain weight that my fellow football player and I must be really pigging out. And he wanted to command-refer us to the weight program (even though we were in spec) because, well, he didn't like the way we looked and he could. So, Mike and I put a challenge to him. We'd eat what he did for a month, do PT with him every day, and we'd do a group weigh-in at start and finish. Mike and I predictably gained weight, and while we didn't always keep up with him on the runs because he liked to sprint out just to dick with us, we always finished the runs in a respectable time, something even he agreed to. We then had the good Colonel live like we did, which included weight training. By the end of the month the Colonel had lost 6 pounds. We took him on a run with a twist. We went running on his favorite route, an 8 miler that went to an old german fortification called Alte Veste. He hung with us, no problem. Now comes the trick. The DIVARTY Command Sergeant Major met us there, with three 75 pound rucks, two M60s, and the Colonel's .45. We rucked up, slung the machineguns, and force marched back to Pinder. The Colonel didn't make it. We didn't go on the Fat Boy program. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2006/03/persons_of_size_in_the_army.html#comment-43067 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2006/03/persons_of_size_in_the_army.html#comment-43067 Sat, 25 Mar 2006 03:53:12 -0600 HL In the Fireman's Carry, you carry him 100m, then he carries you 100m back. Volunteering to carry the little guy might just piss him off. Cheers JMH http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2006/03/persons_of_size_in_the_army.html#comment-43065 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2006/03/persons_of_size_in_the_army.html#comment-43065 Fri, 24 Mar 2006 22:21:37 -0600 Just to be evil, you might add a 300m shuttle run in full kit (with water, ammo, etc), too include full body armor. And exactly how big is the buddy you must carry? There was a medic rotated through our training back in Nov-Dec. About 6'7", 350 lbs, no kidding. Boy should be playing in the NFL. He could pick up a guy under each arm and carry them around. Of course, who do you think we assessed as the first 'casualty?' And no, I couldn't even think of carrying that boy. Hell, I'd have a hard time dragging him 25 yards. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2006/03/persons_of_size_in_the_army.html#comment-43058 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2006/03/persons_of_size_in_the_army.html#comment-43058 Fri, 24 Mar 2006 18:14:44 -0600 take a guess which end of the spectrum i have always been at: i was a strong advocate of doing the APFT scoring by weight class, and the final event (added after completion of the two mile run) was a wrestling match or 5 rounds of boxing against your boss (his choice). if you could beat the snot outta him, it didn't matter what your tape test or APFT score said. (scrawny little rat weasels...) http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2006/03/persons_of_size_in_the_army.html#comment-43055 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2006/03/persons_of_size_in_the_army.html#comment-43055 Fri, 24 Mar 2006 16:54:56 -0600 A far more useful measure of military fitness. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2006/03/persons_of_size_in_the_army.html#comment-43051 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2006/03/persons_of_size_in_the_army.html#comment-43051 Fri, 24 Mar 2006 16:21:42 -0600 The Canadian Army doesn't use BMI any more, too many "exceptions". We now use the Rucksack March: 25kg rucksack, with rifle, helmet and webbing; march 13km in less than 2hr 20min. Over "moderately undulating" terrain. Followed by "fireman's carry" of a buddy over 100m. Cheers JMH http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2006/03/persons_of_size_in_the_army.html#comment-43050 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2006/03/persons_of_size_in_the_army.html#comment-43050 Fri, 24 Mar 2006 16:17:33 -0600 insane Hard breathing causes brain damage. Any Marine's here to validate? *grin*]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2006/03/persons_of_size_in_the_army.html#comment-43044 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2006/03/persons_of_size_in_the_army.html#comment-43044 Fri, 24 Mar 2006 15:18:35 -0600 The only reason I retired vice got fired is my 21 inch neck. Yes, yes. It's true what they say. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2006/03/persons_of_size_in_the_army.html#comment-43037 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2006/03/persons_of_size_in_the_army.html#comment-43037 Fri, 24 Mar 2006 14:44:15 -0600 In the Canadian Forces we used to have BMI testing, but it got scrapped. I had a buddy who at 5' 9" and 240lbs could beat (formerly) speedy little old me over a sixty-yard dash. Strong as an ox, farmboy-type. When we still had BMI, twice a year he'd pass his fitness test (higher at the military college than the general standard, believe it or not), and twice a year he'd fail the BMI and get sent to NDMC (the head-honcho medical centre in Ottawa) for immersion testing. Which he would always pass, of course, since he wasn't fat, just a horse of a man. I'm pleased to say he's now a signals major, with no more stupid "you're supposed to look like this" pseudo-fitness standards to get past. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2006/03/persons_of_size_in_the_army.html#comment-43032 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2006/03/persons_of_size_in_the_army.html#comment-43032 Fri, 24 Mar 2006 14:09:06 -0600 I'm IRR, as my name attests to and I've got until April 30th to make my ht/wt standards to re-up IRR (I'm getting paid to stay IRR as part of a Variable Separation Incentive program). 15lbs to go... http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2006/03/persons_of_size_in_the_army.html#comment-43027 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2006/03/persons_of_size_in_the_army.html#comment-43027 Fri, 24 Mar 2006 13:33:38 -0600 Anyone who can score 90% on the AFPT should be exempt from any and all tape test qualifications. My degree is in Kinesiology and I can tell you that the BMI is a great test for the massES (no pun intended) but there will always be those in society for whom it does not work - specifically those who have more muscle mass than the average human. To counteract this, the exemption needs to be made for anyone who can score a 90% or better on the AFPT. If you can max out the PT test, I don't give a rats patootie WHAT you look like... - hfs http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2006/03/persons_of_size_in_the_army.html#comment-43021 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2006/03/persons_of_size_in_the_army.html#comment-43021 Fri, 24 Mar 2006 11:48:51 -0600 strikes! ]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2006/03/persons_of_size_in_the_army.html#comment-43013 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2006/03/persons_of_size_in_the_army.html#comment-43013 Fri, 24 Mar 2006 10:43:01 -0600 Welcome to the Battle of the Bulge Part 2. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2006/03/persons_of_size_in_the_army.html#comment-43012 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2006/03/persons_of_size_in_the_army.html#comment-43012 Fri, 24 Mar 2006 10:34:27 -0600 MMİ - Heh--as a pro athlete, you *might* have made it. With a lot of extra training, of course... http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2006/03/persons_of_size_in_the_army.html#comment-43010 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2006/03/persons_of_size_in_the_army.html#comment-43010 Fri, 24 Mar 2006 09:54:28 -0600 Heh. I just remembered a more recent casualty of the Army Beautification Project--one of our Viet Vet aviating, marathon running, APFT maxing Instructor Pilots. Back in the late '70s, in a rather transparent effort to stem the tide of females applying for Flight School, DA increased the minimum height requirement from sixty inches to sixty-four. The new Party Line became, "Anyone shorter than that is physiologically unable to reach the antitorque pedals, so it's actually a safety issue and *not* a transparent attempt to keep wimmin out. Honest." Robby was suddenly two inches too short to fly Army helicopters, so out he went after fifteen-hundred combat hours and ten years in the Guard. So, where did he get a new job? Flying helicopters for the Army as a DA civilian. At Fort Rucker, the Home of Army Aviation. Oh, yeah--DA never addressed the fact that helicopter antitorque pedals are adjustable. At full aft setting in the Hubert, my knees are under my armpits... http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2006/03/persons_of_size_in_the_army.html#comment-43009 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2006/03/persons_of_size_in_the_army.html#comment-43009 Fri, 24 Mar 2006 09:43:57 -0600 Well, isn't that special, the server error didn't like the second half of my comment. Jebus! I just found the Army's ht/wt regs. When I was a 22 year old pro athlete and in the best shape of my life (&lt10% body fat) I'd barely pass those regs. And then only for the non-prior mil experience. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2006/03/persons_of_size_in_the_army.html#comment-43007 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2006/03/persons_of_size_in_the_army.html#comment-43007 Fri, 24 Mar 2006 09:30:55 -0600 Jebus! I just found the Army's ht/wt regs. When I was a 22 year old pro athlete and in the best shape of my life ( http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2006/03/persons_of_size_in_the_army.html#comment-43006 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2006/03/persons_of_size_in_the_army.html#comment-43006 Fri, 24 Mar 2006 09:27:54 -0600 One of my best Drills in the old BCT days was a twenty-four year old E-6. Two tours with the 9th ID. Something like 4% body fat, black belt in karate and jiujitsu. He had an encyclopedic knowledge of all things infantry and never scored less than the max on any PT test--and back then, we took them every six weeks. During hand-to-hand combat demonstrations, he'd walk past me and kick my hat off my head without breaking stride. Problem was, he was five-foot-six and looked like a fireplug with legs. When he was named Ft. Dix Drill Sergeant of the Year, the brigade commander recommended him for promotion. DA kicked it back and four weeks later, my E-6 was out of the Army--non-selected for retention and RIF'ed--because he "failed to meet Army standards." Bureaucratic a$$hats... http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2006/03/persons_of_size_in_the_army.html#comment-43000 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2006/03/persons_of_size_in_the_army.html#comment-43000 Fri, 24 Mar 2006 08:46:04 -0600 The secret to BMI is all in the neck. When they do the tape test the bigger your neck the better chane you'll pass (the idea being the size of your "muscles" :P I passed my tape every single time. At 5ft 9 210 lbs I was your typical barrel chested Irishman, but I got taped...even tho I wore a 32 waist. If they taped me now they'd die laughing, but such is the joys of being a PFC :) http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2006/03/persons_of_size_in_the_army.html#comment-42995 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2006/03/persons_of_size_in_the_army.html#comment-42995 Fri, 24 Mar 2006 07:38:17 -0600 The problem with the body/fat/mass index is that it doesn't work for short stocky people - I mean those that ARE in shape - or big guys. I had a couple of guys in my reserve unit who could hump up a GP medium tent danm near by themselves but who consistantly failed that stupid test. I with you if they can pass the PT test after failing the BM test, they get a go. And no mention in their EER. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2006/03/persons_of_size_in_the_army.html#comment-42992 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2006/03/persons_of_size_in_the_army.html#comment-42992 Fri, 24 Mar 2006 07:26:19 -0600