We're the Military and Airpower Guys of Jonah Goldberg of National Review Online + a stray we found wandering around looking lost. All original material JHD, BHD, JR, WT, and KA 2003-2007 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/12/juxtapositions.html Sun, 03 Aug 2008 17:14:39 Z Movable Type 4.12 en Copyright 2008 http://www.rssboard.org/rss-specification Email box pinged yesterday, with this delivered: IMMEDIATE RELEASE No. 1333-05 December 28, 2005 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- DoD Identifies Army Casualties The Department of Defense announced today the death of two soldiers, who were supporting Operation Iraqi Freedom. They died in Baghdad, Iraq on Dec. 26, when their Apache helicopter collided with another military aircraft in mid-air and then crashed. Both soldiers were assigned to the 1st Battalion, 4th Aviation Regiment, Aviation Brigade, 4th Infantry Division, Fort Hood, Texas. Killed were: Chief Warrant Officer Richard M. Salter, 44, of Cypress, Texas. Chief Warrant Officer Isaias E. Santos, 28, of Ancon, Panama. The... http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/12/juxtapositions.html http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/12/juxtapositions.html Thu, 29 Dec 2005 09:02:19 -0600 My deepest condolences to CW4 Salter's and CWO Santos' family. I served with Mr. Salter on several continents defending peace. I agree with the good souls' comments ahead of me - - those two aviators are at Fiddler's Green, waitin' for us with a few cold ones. If there must be trouble, let it be in my day, that my child may have peace. -Thomas Paine I love the man that can smile in trouble, that can gather strength from distress, and grow brave by reflection. 'Tis the business of little minds to shrink, but he whose heart is firm, and whose conscience approves his conduct, will pursue his principles unto death. -Thomas Paine http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/12/juxtapositions.html#comment-37730 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/12/juxtapositions.html#comment-37730 Thu, 05 Jan 2006 22:00:34 -0600 Sir: I am in Iraq. Have been here for two years. I knew Mr. Santos. He is as a son to me. There is more to this "incident" than we have heard so far. Mr. Santos and Mr. Salter were among the finest. Keep me posted, I will do the same. jimspiri@yahoo.com http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/12/juxtapositions.html#comment-37347 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/12/juxtapositions.html#comment-37347 Sun, 01 Jan 2006 19:02:26 -0600 I thought that a deserter was shot. I think that 10 months, plus 6 months (who is going to choose to pay $100,000 over six months away?), is not sufficient punishment. I think he should be in for the duration plus six months. But he should AT LEAST be in as long as his unit would have been away. At that shouldn't include anytime while he was waiting for trial, either. When the punishment doesn't involve potential death, which this doesn't, I think the time element should be much less lenient. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/12/juxtapositions.html#comment-37264 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/12/juxtapositions.html#comment-37264 Sat, 31 Dec 2005 10:38:17 -0600 One-Three - I didn't post the e-mail chatter, but most of it had to do with the crew and their loss. The AH-64 community's not that large and both left friends in- and outside the 1-4th. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/12/juxtapositions.html#comment-37152 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/12/juxtapositions.html#comment-37152 Thu, 29 Dec 2005 16:17:05 -0600 As all the comments so far have been in reference to the aforementioned scumbag deserter...I'd like to put in my two cents about the late Matt Salter and his front seater Isaias Santos. I know Matt from a previous assignment as did many of my co-workers. Matt was a great guy with a great family and his and Mr. Santos loss saddens all of us. When you contrast their sacrifice with the cowardly actions of Mr. Pitts no amount of punishment is worthy the same he has brought on the Attack community, the Warrant Officer Corps and the United States Army. I personally would bush him to PV1 and have him ride convoy duty on RTE Irish for as long as his unit is deployed. As George C. Scott in Patton said, "You're going to the front my friend, and you may be shot and you may be even killed but I will not have this place of honor defiled by your presence." or words to that effect. (sorry didn't look up the script). I could go on about how the system screwed up and allowed a person like Mr. Pitts through but all that would accomplish is to raise my blood pressure even more. Mr. Santos and Mr. Salter will be waiting for us at Fiddlers Green...save us a cold one. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/12/juxtapositions.html#comment-37151 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/12/juxtapositions.html#comment-37151 Thu, 29 Dec 2005 16:05:29 -0600 Tommy - Bad paper isn't the deterrent it once was--I only had one civilian (potential) employer even ask to see my DD-214. And a military helicopter pilot does not necessarily transition into civil aviation. Someone with lots of experience and training equates to an expensive hire in the minds of a lot of operators, who are usually operating on a tight budget. Throw in flight records detailing several thousand hours and now the chief pilot starts thinking you're after *his* job... http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/12/juxtapositions.html#comment-37140 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/12/juxtapositions.html#comment-37140 Thu, 29 Dec 2005 14:22:21 -0600 Better he turn tail now than when he is flying someone's wing. While this is the lesser of the two evils, 10 months in the stockade while his unit is pulling a 12 month tour seems insufficient. There's also the 18 months of training to take into account. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/12/juxtapositions.html#comment-37135 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/12/juxtapositions.html#comment-37135 Thu, 29 Dec 2005 13:54:08 -0600 Yeah John I can see where you're coming from. It's just as you know there are several ways to get kicked out of the service where the servicemember doesn't go to jail. The last thing the troops need in a combat zone is a pilot who's not focused on the mission. A dishonorable discharge will ground a chopper pilot in the civilian world. Nobody would want the liabilty. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/12/juxtapositions.html#comment-37115 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/12/juxtapositions.html#comment-37115 Thu, 29 Dec 2005 11:46:27 -0600 I tend to agree with Barb and John on this one. This punishment amounts to safe cold storage state-side and early release. I think Duration +6 Months is entirely reasonable. Though, it would have sorta sucked for him if he'd pulled it in Korea. I'm not sure what 'punishment for punishment's sake' is.. As John points out we as taxpayers invested mightily in this man for training. Wasted, all of it. And now we have to burn even more resources on him. I say punish away, and publicize the hell out of it, so we don't get any more like him. Then again, i'm a fairly vicious human being, that thinks even 1 count of 1st degree murder is justification for the death penalty in all cases... http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/12/juxtapositions.html#comment-37112 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/12/juxtapositions.html#comment-37112 Thu, 29 Dec 2005 11:41:26 -0600 I can't say it better than John and Bill have in the last few comments. I don't think it is 'throwing the book' at the man to see that he sits in prison for the deployment term plus 6-months or a year. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/12/juxtapositions.html#comment-37111 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/12/juxtapositions.html#comment-37111 Thu, 29 Dec 2005 11:39:46 -0600 This veteran and son/grandson-of-two-others understands that too, Tommy. Nonetheless. If the punishment amounts to a *reward,* it's not useful. Let him serve the same time in penance his comrades are serving subject to being in harm's way. I don't see anything un-American Way in that. We're not talking draftees here. And this guy, to get into the cockpit of an Apache, is not only a many-times-over volunteer, he's an *expensive* many-times-over volunteer. And the $100,000 fine probably does *not* recoup the cost of flight training. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/12/juxtapositions.html#comment-37108 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/12/juxtapositions.html#comment-37108 Thu, 29 Dec 2005 11:17:39 -0600 I'm think a year in jail and dishonorable ischarge is enough. You really don't need to throw the book at an aviator who's getting a dishonorable the military is already kicking the aviator out punishing for punishment sake's is not really the American way.This veteran understands some of our service members wind up with PTSD or just cold feet. Better to just kick em' out http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/12/juxtapositions.html#comment-37103 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/12/juxtapositions.html#comment-37103 Thu, 29 Dec 2005 10:56:48 -0600 And it's the more serious charge for the reasons Barb mentioned. In the mil world, you may redeem yourself in our eyes after an act of cowardice which affects only you, but expect no forgiveness from us for a cowardly act which results in the death of comrades. In that instance, forgiveness is God's provenance. Sure, it's harsh. So is recovering the bodies of your friends. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/12/juxtapositions.html#comment-37101 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/12/juxtapositions.html#comment-37101 Thu, 29 Dec 2005 10:44:02 -0600 "Desertion in the face of the enemy" is the more serious charge. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/12/juxtapositions.html#comment-37095 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/12/juxtapositions.html#comment-37095 Thu, 29 Dec 2005 10:30:12 -0600 I would tend to agree with John, duration plus X months, versus execution, in a case like this. But, then again, if he were to leave during battle - leaving troops unprotected or (worse even) behind on the field -- death would be the sentence I would expect. Is it fair to call them both desertion and have different sentences? http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/12/juxtapositions.html#comment-37094 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/12/juxtapositions.html#comment-37094 Thu, 29 Dec 2005 10:27:24 -0600 JimC - The misplaced "leniency" is the gist of what the rest of us Aviator types have been saying, but in much cruder language. And the Apache guys have been especially virulent. We also commented on the reason desertion is such a rare charge in the Guard--and it's *not* because there haven't been instances of it. When desertion occurs, the charge is usually reduced to "missing movement"--the penalties for which are worse than those for AWOL, but entirely more lenient than those which can be prescribed for desertion in time of war... http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/12/juxtapositions.html#comment-37093 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/12/juxtapositions.html#comment-37093 Thu, 29 Dec 2005 10:12:24 -0600 I thought deserters were shot. In this type of war isn't desertion always "in the face of the enemy"? There are no front lines and the homeland has been attacked directly. I think this sentence is far too lenient. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/12/juxtapositions.html#comment-37085 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/12/juxtapositions.html#comment-37085 Thu, 29 Dec 2005 09:25:02 -0600