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The WP controversy.

Given the kerfuffle (which I missed, having too much fun at Fort Benning) over the WP allegations, based on Radley Balko's post (which he mostly repudiated, with a manly defense of the appropriateness of the post anyway), pointed out to me by Bob Owens at Confederate Yankee, who has his own in-house artilleryman to give evidence (which I don't *entirely* agree with, but only on geekoid terms).

You can see the video via the link at Confederate Yankee, should you wish - be aware pictures of dead people abound in it.

The "crockumentary" as Bob so succinctly puts it, is flawed from the opening, they started losing me when they were showing the napalm footage from Vietnam, talking about how the canisters already "glowed blue" from friction as they were released. Note to Sigfrido - not much "glows blue" due to friction - and the rest of the aircraft would have, as well - but aluminum does take on the dominant colors - like sky blue - around it. And the cloudy mist around the canisters from release is simply an artifact of airflow in a humid environment - fly into Orlando some muggy afternoon and watch the vortex contrails off the wing.

The two soldiers? Engelhart lived in a vastly different world than most soldiers of his station. Heck, I served on higher staffs and I *never* got orders direct from the Pentagon, as he claims. He may be telling what he feels is the truth - but not credibly to my ears. But, of course, I'm an officer, and fully assimilated by the Borg. Reppenhagen, the other soldier? Did he kill civilians? Quite possibly. But what is obvious upon a close-up examination of a body isn't anywhere near that obvious at 100-300m. I don't know how many civilians died in Fallujah. I have no doubt there were civilian casualties. If those people weren't allowed to flee by the Insurgents, then the onus is on the Insurgents. If those people chose to stay... well, any death is a sad thing, but staying in a town you *know* is going to be the center of a firefight is even less understandable than riding out a hurricane. You make your choice, to take your chances.

The WP. I don't share CPT Robison's (Bob Owen's commenter) view of the video. To me, that looks like current WP projectiles functioning, with the bright lights falling to ground being the night-vision-enhanced view of the burning felt wedges falling to earth. Why shoot a screening agent at night? One thing about the felt-wedge WP vice the old version is that the smoke is much cooler - our night-vision can see through it - the insurgents Mk 1 Eyeball cannot see so clearly. So we used it to screen movements, mark locations, etc. All proper uses of WP.

[Update: Robison pointed out in email if it was NVD video it would likely have the greenish hue to it, rather than being in color - a point I readily concede. I still think the exaggeration of the light source is an artifact of nighttime video -but also acknowledge that I am doing a Wile E. Coyote in the air over a canyon in asserting any techinical knowledge regarding video..., so I'll leave that to the guys who *do* have some experience. ]

The 'bodies with strange injuries' such as burned flesh but unburned clothing. Welcome to nature at work. Putrefaction in unrefrigerated dead bodies. Most of the bodies I saw in the video looked like week-old corpses, not chemical casualties. I've seen bodies like that live, and there was nothing shown in the video that suggests otherwise to me.

The dead animals? Blast concussion kills, and doesn't always leave obvious marks on the surface, such as bleeding from the eyes, ears, nose, etc. The dead rodents in the cage? Certainly possible smoke inhalation from fires now extinguished - or victims of dehydration after the owners fled?

Lastly - in all the videos - to include those shot by soldiers in combat - did anyone see US or Iraqi troops wearing gasmasks or protective gear? D'you think we'd have been using chemicals without MOPPing up?

I doubt it.

I think Bob has the right of it. Crockumentary.

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I've come to expect a certain level of dishonesty from the foreign media regarding the error-riddled white phosphorus "crockumentary" produced by Rai News24, but it is another thing entirely for a writer for a major American news organization based in... Read More

[Note: Fallujah: The Hidden Massacre is a recently released film from Italian Rai News24, an offshoot of communist-dominated channel Rai 3, and was directed by Sigfrido Ranucci. Thanks to Sgt. B of The Gun Line for the tip in this... Read More

31 Comments

He's already recanted the story, John. But you do it more justice, explaining the inconsistancies in the video. I gotta give the guy credit for the public apology though.
 
Oh Lord, their at the 'we napalmed Fallujah' game again? CAn I just take two aspirin and have you call me when it's over? Some nit-wit writes Eric Alterman that white phosphorus smoke is LETHAL for a tenth of a mile. What a freakin' lie. The products are heat, lots of heat, and a POx(where x is some integer) particulate. There's no poison gas. Phosphorus oxides, like nitrous oxides, are pretty stable buggers. They aren't likely to come apart when you breath them(look at your periodic table, it's just under nitrogen. Look up the bond strength of N and O--you aren't going to seperate those easily. Look up the P O bond strength. Look up the MSDSs on both nitrous oxide and POx----where's the listing for toxity? What's the LD 50?). If you remember any of you chemistry at all you'll remember that properties and reactivity of one element are like that of those near it, both in group and period(columns and rows). What's to the right of phosphorus? Sulfur, which never met an oxygen atom it didn't like---and sulfur oxides just smell bad. To the left is silicon(Si). Again, an atom that never met an oxygen atom it didn't like. If you're wearing glasses you're in close proximity to SiOx. Are you dead yet? NItrogen oxides will only kill you if you laugh to death, the funny feeling from oxgen deprivation--kinda like when CO gets you. Aresenic is Arsenic. It's toxic. But Aresenic Oxides are pretty tame--meaning they won't kill you. And they claim to live in Reality. CAll me when the moonbats have gone back into hibernation, would 'ya?
 
Hey guys, just to clarify, I was stating that it was an airburst WP round. At the time I wrote it I didn't know if "felt wedges" was classified, because they told us it was in FAOBC (10 years ago). So that is what I meant when I said "burning rags". I have since seen it referrence on globalsecurity.org and now know it is not classified. thanks for the support, lets get the truth out, shockingly few are...
 
You know JOhn, that is what I really kept thinking through the whole assertions. I saw video of our guys, day and night, during the entire operation and no one was wearing their gas mask or suit. (not like I didn't know the WP thing was BS, but I can't understand how any civilian would be pulled into that BS when simple logic not requiring military background would make the claim bogus; but I suppose that's why we have people who join cults, drink kool aid and try to join the big alien circus in the sky)
 
Ooh, Oooh, before Miss THang comes back from lunch. When did using the enemies stupidity against them become illegal? I never saw that amendment to the Geneva Conventions? 'Shake and bake' is legal(and tastes pretty good on chicken too). If the enemy has some bugaboo about being gassed you can't use that irrational fear against him? Drop something the enemy doesn't understand around them. It smokes, they panic. They run. They die by the bushel in the open. Unless someone wants to make the case that making the enemy scared enough to leave an improved position is illegal I don't see where anyone could get upset about this(the whole support the troops, bring them home, not one more life diatribe). I'm begining to think this one ties into the 'US Army isn't heroic because it uses air support' theme that was running around a week or two ago.
 
Last time I checked PETN and Comp-B were Organic Chemicals. Guess that we have been using Chemical Weapons all along. No MOPP's required to use those chemicals, only prayer beads on the receiving end. Snerk-Snark-Snork
 
Throwing a stuffed cat toy among pigeons "motivates" the pigeons as much as a real cat would. It's difficult to explain to the pigeons that the fact of the matter is that this is a stuffed cat. Pigeons aren't into facts. They are too bird brained. The people organizing the motivational effort know all of this.
 
I may be wrong, but I was under the impression that ILLUM rounds-arty, mortar, 203-launched, whatever-burned magnesium, not phosphorous. I've seen WP smoke rounds (120mm mortar), and they weren't nearly as bright as ILLUM flares. Now, if the HTML works, some WP bombs in use by the 5th Air Force and the RAAF in the Pacific theater, courtesy of Google: I've also seen photos in dead tree format of WP being dropped by A-1 Skyraiders in Vietnam. Now, I haven't seen the video in question, but did the bursts look anything like the ones in the pictures?
   
Well, as I think I've mentioned here a time or two, I'm a bit slow when it comes to social relations. I was discussing the question here, as to its *technical* aspects. WP burns are icky and nasty, fer sure, but I do think our soldiers would rather just shoot'em with bullets. WP ain't used all that much these days, and not as an anti-personnel thing on purpose, at all. That's what I infer from what I read here, and other places. Could we talk about Depleted Uranium now, instead?
 
There is a basic problem with the story that every soldier should have picked up immediately. WP makes a crappy illum round unless it is from stuff it get burning. Illum ain't WP anyhow. It's magnesium and yes, stand under a burning magnesium flare and you will probably get burned. Remember how the stuff "globs" off a flare? This story screamed bogus from the moment it surfaced. When I wrote on this bogus tale that ended up being an Italian "documentary" it smelled from the onset. If folks want to see a compendium of what was shot during the Fallujah operations I have a link to the NDIA Munitions Discussion in which that was discussed in detail.
 
It's sad (but true) that if we could arrange a foot race between Pres. G. W. Bush and Satan, and Pres. Bush won going away, the MSM and DailyKOS would report that Satan came in second and Pres. Bush next to last. Stepping back to take a larger view, if al Quaida does a few more attacks like the hotels in Jordan they won't have anywhere to hide, and wouldn't that be just too sad? Walt
 
I also am not 100% sure that an illum round is WP and not magnesium. I researched it and couldn't find a source so I was going with what I thought. If anybody has a source for magnesium, please post. If it is magnesium then substitute magnesium for WP on the illum talk (keep WP for smoke-point or base ejecting) and its all good.
 
I think the first indication of trouble is right at the beginning of the flick... Kim Phuk was the little girl in the famous photograph during Vietnam, but the reporters claims that it was the Americans that just napalmed her villiage, when, in fact, it was the South VN Air Force that executed the strike... ...And it goes downhill from there...
 
excellent point Sgt B. I also wonder how far away from reality and the military an Italian audience has to be to believe this stuff. I mean, do they only see their military when they are dressed in their cuirassiers with big feathres in their hats for parades? (being sarcastic of course).
 
1. WP is normally used for smoke. 2. Magnesium is normally used for flares. 3. Both can start secondary fires and cause nasty burns to include death when someone comes in direct contact. 4. We are at war with an enemy that has zero respect for human dignity or rules written by hand-wringing politicians (does anybody remember the dead burnt body hanging from a bridge in...you guessed it - Fallujah?). Do you remember the so-called non-combatants dancing around the glowing corpses of dead Americans? 5. Does anybody remember that before the battle of Fallujah that "non-combatants" were warned and encouraged to evacuate? 6. I admit that 24 years of active duty (enlisted; so I never had to talk the "party line")may have tainted my world view. Especially when I had 6 deployments to the "Sandbox," I have to admit that I have really lost my patience with the indigenous population (I have now been in Iraq for 2 years as a contractor). If it had been up to me, I would have let the BUFFs carpet bomb Fallujah for a week before the first GI set foot in that hell-hole. I don't believe the lives of even 1,000 so-called non-combatants are worth undo risk to one American GI. But, that's just me and I know I'll never be nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize (not that I'm losing any sleep over it).
 
All the official docs refer to is a "standard illumination mix" - but given that they also explicity refer to WP and HC when addressing smoke, I think we can at least assume that WP is *not* a component of a standard illumination round. My *auld* documents, from OBC back in 1980, refer to magnesium as the light component of the mix, suspended in a matrix of some sort.
 
Kat - why pick on the Italians? 4 years into a war and most Americans couldn't answer your questions, either.
 
As I've stated before, our civilian population is in the dark on the way we are prosecuting The GWOT. I lay blame squarely on our current administration, who should be given The Calvin Coolidge, Mushroom Farming Award for Public Communication. If they'd only engage us - their constutuents - constructively and proactively, such silly non-sense would not gain any traction amongst us The General Ignaorant Population.
 
John, you still have your old class lit from 1980 FAOBC? AAARRGGG!
 
JTG, as part of the 'Davis Chemistry Club MAgic Show' one year I did the demo of burning Mg that was O fed from dry ice(solid CO2). Burned the bejeesus out of my left hand(oh lord, now we'll get snarking from John). THis was just a little 2mm wide by 2 cm long strip. I used my hand to compress the blocks together and ensure that it was just the shredding of CO2 to provide the Oxy for the burning. 2nd degree burn. That still doesn't make P or Mg into mustard gas or phosgene(which I know how to make. Heeeee.).
 
Thanks Ry. Get us on the Carnivore watch list why doncha? *Disclaimer* "Doing what Ry says he can do would be BAD.* */Disclaimer*
 
Yous mean I can't try to do dat onboard The Sand Pebbles???
 
If you're wearing glasses you're in close proximity to SiOx. [Nitpick] My glasses are 100% polycarbonate plastic. [/nitpick] ... What? I said it was a nitpick, didn't I?
 
Okay, John, you got me. Most Americans have no idea what that shiny stuff going into the air is either. Most of the world for that matter. I suppose that is a good thing in some respects because it means that most of the world hasn't had to go to war or serve in the military.
 
Oh, yeah, Ry, reminds me of an old Campbell editorial in Analog, right after the Apollo 1 fire. He was pointing out that you can't put out a Mg fire with CO2, it justs sucks out the oxy and leaves a cloud of black carbon smoke. There was something about how a Ti fire is even worse, but I forget. On the phosgene; I thought all you had to do to get that was leave yer Teflon-lined skillet on a stove, with nothing in it. Oh, and did you know that some housewives have poisoned themselves with chlorine by mixing bleach with ammonia? There may be something to be said for not letting most folks have sharp objects, at least until we improve the education system.
 
Hey! No digs about sharp objects! Kat - pretty much my take on it. If my sister-who-is-also-a-daughter of a soldier can be clueless about things... that's not all bad.
 
JTG, exactly. I'm pretty sure that's why they came up with halon extinguishers. Same principle. Different gas. Never heard of a titanium fire. That would be pretty interesting to see, from a distance(while a transition metal, it's still awefully close to potasium and calcium. THose ignite pretty easily and violently. That's why they're stored under mineral oil. ANd, when trying to make exotic alkoxides, getting pure and reactive metals on your skin hurts, alot.). Ti, like aluminum, forms a super stable oxide, I thought? How'd you get a clean enough surface? Not sure about the degredation products of teflon. Don't think it goes to phosgene. I think it's just a really acrid smoke. An organo-halide like that is supposed to be stable for several hundreds of degrees C. I don't think you could slag teflon with your oven or broiler. Scratch it with a metal spoon maybe, but not slag(but don't quote me). There's something like 1000 deaths/annum from mixed chemical accidents like that. When I worked as a janitor there was actually a list of what we could and couldn't mix for that very reason. John's right though. THere's a reason why the Anarchists Cookbook has been yanked. TO much in there that can be used for ill purposes. Given that, I'm surprised that there hasn't been a move to make all bleach non-chlorine. There's alternatives that work just as well that doesn't leave a smart goombah with some easy access to something we'd rather he didn't have. But, on the other hand, John, I was taught how by Dr. Phil Power during his inorganic chem class lectures. Purely for academic reasons, and I haven't made any in years(or gun cotton for that matter). Besides, I'm a piker compared to the Cal Tech undergrads pyros. And I knew I should've used 'likely' in that passage. Crap.
 
Actually, ry, halon doesn't work by displacing oxygen as does CO2, it interferes with the thermochemical reaction of the fire (the old fire triangle you learned about in grade school is now a tetrahedron). So you only need a small concentration, about 6 percent, for it to work. With the potential benefit that you could enter the space without a breathing apparatus... not that you'd want to enter a burning space without a BA. The downside to halon is you have to shoot it into the space quickly because at high enough temperatures (I forget off the top of my head right now) it decomposes before doing its work. And the decomposition products are toxic - in fact, the fire instructors call it a "phosgene like" gas. So current shipboard fire fighting doctrine for a halon equippped space (like an engine room) is to evacuate, seal the space, and shoot the halon. Then give it about fifteen minutes to cool before reentry.
 
Well, we all know that the neurotoxin Pb is being used by the Americans as too.
 
JoA, and ry, it's way too late already. I dunno about y'all, but I may already be on one of those "lists." I refer to the Pyro Purity Test thread, and the one on which I mentioned flour as a fuel-air explosive, etc. On the "Anarchist's Cookbook": I regard my copy as nothing more than an amusing historical document, because when I bought it I was actually taking some chemistry courses and was able to compare and contrast, so to speak. Let me just say, that some of the recipes in that book didn't seem quite right. Steve: Cool, but what do we do after we've exhausted the world's supply of Halon? Ain't it agin' the law to make the stuff, now?
 
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