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Echo Chambers...

By The Armorer on June 16, 2005 | | Comments (36)

The meme around the blogs yesterday was "Echo Chamber." See here and our own pet lefty Alan here for examples.

While the core denizens and periodic commenters at the Castle apparently share a fairly common core of beliefs - there is plenty of room for energetic disagreement on the margins.

The Terri Schiavo case was, I think, the most glaring of these fissures in the group. I was on the side of Terri's parents with several others. Several among us were on the side of Michael Schiavo. Most of you just skimmed past or watched from the bleachers.

My comment regarding Michelle Malkin's post on the autopsy was a poorly executed attempt at getting one of us out of his corner and back into the light (a decision he intimates I will regret later today...) But the one who came out of the shadows was not the one I was after, and he came out swinging, hard. I inadvertently stepped on Neffi's last nerve on the subject. So here, publicly, I'll apologize for that. The old "If I knew then what I know now defense" is all I have on offer, and it isn't sufficient. I'm sorry, Neffi.

Feh, what's life if it ain't about passion?

Losses like that can crush the faith and soul of anyone.

And make you angry when you hear people talk about shit that you *know* about. Especially when it's slightly flip, like I did. Like my lack of humor regarding John Kerry and his departure from Vietnam.

I still hold to my position as stated in earlier stuff - but I'll acknowledge that in this instance, Michael Schiavo was right.

Too bad he didn't have it in writing, or with at least another witness - and the parents were willing to take over the care and costs, that is where I was coming from.

I would have been on the other side had there been anything other than hearsay - as far as I knew at the time. My mother has a living will - she has it because she knows my father will be simply unable to pull the plug. So I'll do it, or my sister.

For my father - well, based on what I know about what my father feels, I might end up fighting my mother about pulling the plug - as in resisting the pull. I don't know, because it all comes down to the actual specifics of the case. I know where SWWBO stands on the issue, and will act accordingly - but the next time we update the wills - I'll get it in writing, just in case there are questions. I'll let her tell if she wishes. Not my place in this space (Hey, Mom wants everyone to know - in case you were wondering how I could square that circle).

But like I said in my comment in the post below, deciding to keep someone alive is a reversible decision, if the facts change, or my understanding of them changes. The other decision is not reversible, so I'm willing to have some tug-of-war over it.

Obviously, Jack and Sanger's mileage varies - but from what Neffi said in his note about his situation- we'd probably both have reached the same conclusion he did... which was to pull the plug on his son. So, here I am, again sitting in the mushy middle, reviled as having no principles at all by the Rush Limbaughs and Markos Zunigas of the world.

Well, tough noogies. Frankly, this is where most of us sit, on average. I generally can't abide hanging around with people who exist at either extreme.

And, if nothing else - the issue with Terri Schiavo is resolved, and the law on the underlying matter more settled. And from what the autopsy report says... Terri was probably unaware of anything, a blessing.

But sometimes you have to take a stand. Terri's parents did, Michael did. And so the issue is more defined, and more certain. I don't mind that. What I didn't like was letting it stay so murky and gray, because sometimes the great mushy middle isn't a good place to be, and too much can be done behind the curtains. As always, the Moonbats ruled both extremes and were really annoying. I don't recall having any Moonbats visit - though some sites linked that were infested with moonbats of both stripes (though the owners of the linking sites weren't).

Stay away, Moonbats. You aren't welcome here. But persons of good mind and manners are - even if they disagree.

And since I pay for this and have the ultimate editing privileges, that's the way it is. I'm the Bouncer of Argghhh!

And no - that doesn't mean Neffi was bounced - I pulled his comment at *his* request, and he's free to post it back verbatim, if he wants.

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36 Comments

By ry on June 17, 2005 6:01 AM
Damn. That's not something one would wish on his arch nemisis. I'm awefully sorry you had to go through that Neffi. None the less, I do hope he does come back and post here. He's a good egg and we're all lucky to have met the guy(even if it's only digitally). Please, do come back Neffi. John: Mushy? In the middle? You? Did I not scamper when you looked at me cross eyed the other day(digitally)? BS man. Like Jack you know what you believe, and on certain subjects nobody is going to sway you. Ever. That doesn't make you a fanatic, and that's the problem moonbats will always have. You ain't as pure as them in such and such belief. I just hope Neffi comes back. It isn't the Beatles breaking up, but I do like the guy.
 
By Alan on June 17, 2005 6:21 AM
On the original line up top, the idea I have floated a number of times is a "blogger's Parliament/Congress" where members can debate. It is not to replace blogs but to add to them, providing some hub where the ideas in one can be placed against another in a more specific way than an aggregator. It is good to have disagreement at the edges at one's own place but I keep thinking there must be a way to take all this effort and energy to advance an argument with civility but also persuasion as opposed the regular kind of predisposition a guy like me brings to the home site.
 
By Cricket on June 17, 2005 7:58 AM
I know Neffi will come back. The time is of his choosing.
 
By Neffi on June 17, 2005 8:47 AM
Speaking of that Neffi bastage... People, I apologize for my harsh and ugly language last night. I had just gotten something in the mail that was well-intentioned but which temporarily sent me round the bend and I kind of snapped. Reasonable people have different positions regarding issues such as withdrawing life support and I understand and respect that... my outburst yesterday was out of line but stems from my own personal experiences in the matter- but which doesn't give me the right to trample on the opinions of others, who may well have faced similar dilemmas themselves. Anyhoo... my thanks to those who mailed me with sympathy and concern- it was and is much appreciated. I think I'll go tinker with the RitaMatic... [lights cheap cigar] TGIF
 
By freakchylde on June 17, 2005 9:29 AM
Man Neffi- *hugs*
 
By Fuzzybear Lioness on June 17, 2005 9:49 AM
As all the commenters have implied, it's a terribly tough and personal issue with no clear-cut answers. Years ago I helped make print-ready (incl. checking grammar, etc.) a collection of medical ethics essays that introduced me to an idea I have never forgotten. One essayist raised the issue that because modern medicine now has the capacity to extend life beyond its natural limits, perhaps it acts in SOME cases to increase suffering rather than relieve it. I think that's true, but it's an awfully gray area and a slippery slope (to mix metaphors a bit), so I tend to come down on John's side of the issue. However, having watched my famiy members go through this several times (with different results), I don't see any clear rules. And religion IS a huge part--both in devotion to aid the helpless and in the belief that this world is not one's ultimate destination and thus not always worth clinging to. I recently watched a debate on Iraq unfold over at Neptunus Lex. It struck me that one side argued with an excellent mixture of mind and heart while the other seemed to approach it mostly as an intellectual exercise. I found the latter to be vaguely disturbing in his almost cavalier, over-intellectualized attitude. Let's remember that we are talking about real people and real issues and not merely a diverting, intellectual puzzle.
 
By Fuzzybear Lioness on June 17, 2005 9:50 AM
And I like Neffi's hint. Maybe a party is in order? :)
 
By SangerM on June 17, 2005 10:37 AM
Neffi, thanks.. And don't worry about it. Otherwise, before this degenerates into a drunk-boat-Rhine-Aflame-like thread, let me add this: Death and dying seems to be a subject that a lot of us have either dealt with, or are trying to deal with, or have thought about a lot, for one reason or another. That said, I would like to offer initially, a suggestion that you hunt up almost all of the books by the late Elizaeth Kubler-Ross, MD, who was a groundbreaking pioneer in the field. Her book "On Death and Dying" was recommended to us, and it became the first of many such works my wife and I have read in the past almost 20 years. Another book for the more technically minded of us is "How We Die, Reflections on Life’s Final Chapter" by Sherwin B. Nuland. Hard to read, but excellent and very well done! Don't read it if you don't want to know how the body works/stops working. And I have heard these are good too: Necessary Losses by Judith Viorst A Grief Observed by C.S. Lewis There are MANY more. As for how modern medicine has worked to make people more miserable, consider this thought (not original with me): In America, death has become the new pornography. We don't care if people walk around nearly nude (as I found at Fiesta Texas last night), nor do we care much what goes on the screen (big or small), but we isolate and try to sterilize dying in every way we can. We no longer let children into deathbed rooms, though I insist my daughter visit dying relatives and that she attend funerals! We send people to hospitals or to old people warehouses to die instead of keeping them home or letting them die in their own beds (though many dying people want it that way). We try our best to avoid even mentioning a dead loved one of a friend or acquaintance, which is exactly NOT what people really want; and the well-meaning, but stupid weak-knees among us make such a big terribly stupid deal out of every soldier who comes back in a box that now we have to move their remains around in secret and avoid showing them because people just can't abide the view. In many ways, I hate what this country has become in terms of death and dying. People die. If you are a religous person, that means they are better off, though it also means we're often not. I miss a lot of people who've passed through my life and I have more than a few regrets about how I dealt with the deaths of some of them. I'll live with those regrets, but I won't make the same mistakes anymore. I wasn't raised right, and had to learn the hard way, my daughter certainly won't be able to say the same. I don't turn my face anymore. I look. I don't pretend it didn't happen, I confront it. I won't "not talk about it" because I think it might hurt someone's feelings, that's well-meaning but misguided. I dont believe the sanctity of life is more important than the quality of life. Life ain't all that great, when you really get down to it. It's an endless struggle, and after a while it just starts to wear you down. I am NOT in a hurry to move on--there's LOTS I want to see and do yet--but I'll be glad for the change when it is my time. But that's all just me, and I suppose my mileage does vary some... :-) There's alot more, but that's enough for now, I think. ~SangerM
 
By Sgt. B. on June 17, 2005 10:40 AM
I'm not going to pretend that I know what happened vis a vis Neffi's comments... But I certainly understand when, due to circumstances unseen by the rest of the crew, a feller suddenly loses a seal in his high-pressure steam system, and suddenly cuts loose... We'll step back and let the Damage Control parties get that puppy locked down, and continue on course, with all hands... We don't leave anyone behind. And ya DON'T have ta agree with everything that everyone else says... Or else the whole interservice rivalry thing would have turned this place into a minature Stalingrad... *settles back on couch, bums a cheap ceegar from Neffi, and watches the girls go by*
 
By John of Argghhh! on June 17, 2005 10:50 AM
Well said, Jarhead. Now get outta my HMMWV and go steal one from the Air Force. Prolly has a/c anyway, the wuss bassids. And then there's sailors... swish, swish, swish... Sanger - of course, the flip side is the Netherlands, where killing the inconvenient is a misdemeanor. Therein lies the crux of why the fight is important.
 
By Fuzzybear Lioness on June 17, 2005 10:58 AM
Sanger, I agree with much of what you say. As the daughter of a minister, I was not shielded from the awareness of death (I remember at age five sitting in a funeral for someone I didn't know--and understanding what it meant to those attending). My parents never pulled the "he went to live on a farm" routine with beloved family pets. I am grateful to them on both counts because as wrenching and painful as it is, I've always known death as an ultimately unavoidable part of life. And what has shaped my perspective the most on death and dying (of which I had far more than my fair share of experience even before the age of 13) is the reminder that it's survivors who suffer, and so it is self-referential to view death as always a tragedy--nearly indescribably painful though it is to the grieving. Sometimes (like war) it is the best that can be in the circumstances of this world.
 
By Barb on June 17, 2005 11:02 AM
Did I hear someone testing the Rita-Matic? Hi, Neffi! Hmm - don't like that particular ceegar brand myself - but I've got some Swisher Sweets I'll share. My sister and I are fond of chomping on them unlit whilst we lose our a$$es in Vegas ;-)
 
By Fuzzybear Lioness on June 17, 2005 11:17 AM
Okay, enough dark stuff from me! I cede the floor to the more light-hearted among us. :)
 
By John of Argghhh! on June 17, 2005 11:17 AM
Izzat a$$e$ or a$$et$? SWWBO and I matriculate there on occasion - mebbe that's where the Western Spiral Arm of the Castle Galaxy should gather...
 
By SangerM on June 17, 2005 11:26 AM
John, in re: "of course, the flip side is the Netherlands, where killing the inconvenient is a misdemeanor." You could not be more right, nor have brought up a better example of what I consider an intellectually corrupt society. I admire the Dutch for some things, but I find repulsive in the extreme their relativistic it's-not-my-place-to-judge-live-and-let-live (or die) view of morality, ethics, and personal responsibility. What I find most interesting lately is their difficulty squaring their openness to all things questionable with the flood of immigrants who feel far differently. I heard a Dutch government spokeswoman on National Proletariat Radio a few weeks ago lamenting that the influx of "more conservative" cultures has caused problems for the gay community and for the secular, non religious (and specifically, non-muslim). So now they want people to adopt their plastic-putty mores or stay away. Now there's a conundrum of the Gordian-kind, eh? As for the Dutch and their policies on killing people, I suppose one shouldn't expect better from a culture which also felt the proper response to heroin addicts clogging the streets of Amsterdam was to find them boats to live on and to provide them with the drugs. What's more, although their ethos is repugnant and alien to me, I do believe the Netherlands is what the US would be if all the moderate-to-conservative minded people in this country threw in the towel and just accepted that there are no boundaries for proper behavior or acceptable applications of rectitude. Can you imagine a whole country without a true moral compass of some kind? God forbid we should ever become as dissolute and degenerate as the Netherlands. ~
 
By SangerM on June 17, 2005 11:29 AM
Ok, my last overlapped the party stuff.. Like FBL, I give, BTW, FBL that was well written.
 
By Barb on June 17, 2005 11:30 AM
Um ... Yes ;-) I second the motion to have a Castle get-together in Vegas!
 
By John of Argghhh! on June 17, 2005 11:32 AM
Hmmm. I suggest we not hijack this thread for a party. The post above this is comment-free at the moment. This one would frankly be ruined turning it into drunken debauchery.
 
By Boquisucio on June 17, 2005 1:03 PM
Neff - You do not have to apologize for your honest heartfelt beliefs. I will leave Sangerīs keyboard convey my thoughts on this matter, and hope that God and his infinite wisdom, love and patience, heal your and your loved ones hearts. May it be so, my friend.
 
By AFSister on June 17, 2005 1:03 PM
I concur, John.... A party is in order, but not under this thread.
 
By ry on June 17, 2005 2:33 PM
Neffi: Got five words for you: Damn glad to see you dude(would'a ripped off the stupid movie accurately, but it feels weird calling someone whose senior enough to be my boss 'boy'). Are we going to let a slippery slope argument fly around here? Where's the Castle air defense artillery? I hate the child euthenization laws over there as much as anyone else, but I just don't like slippery slopes. On this Jack is right: science will guide us. Science defines what 'alive' is. If we stick to that, and avoid Peter Singer's brand of utilitarianism, we won't be euthanizing wee bairns anytime soon.
 
By Sgt. B. on June 17, 2005 2:43 PM
Felk a Humm-Vee, John, I got a jeep, and not one o' them wussy Army jobbers anyhow... And the ones the Air Force drives are too pretty to get dirty... And watch the "sailor" comments, or I'll sic the Corpsman on ya - he'd be the only fellow who'd sit on yer head without causing permanent damage!!! Pardon? *grin* Of course I'm kidding!!! (But I wouldn't own a Humm-Vee on a BET!!!)
 
By John of Argghhh! on June 17, 2005 2:46 PM
Heh. I *vastly* preferred my Hummer (heh-heh, I said, "hummer" - there, quit being titillated, Gyrene) to my M151A2 while gallivanting around the deserts of the world. *Vastly* Hell, if for no other reason than it was exactly wide enough to put a stretcher across behind the roll bar, and you could sleep comfortably. And if *anyone* sits on this head other than SWWBO... there *will* be permanent damage... but not to the head in question. ;^)
 
By Fuzzybear Lioness on June 17, 2005 3:03 PM
Missing SWWBO a little, John? ;) ROTFLOL! She's back this evening, right?
 
By John of Argghhh! on June 17, 2005 3:08 PM
2.456689780458e4 hours. Why do you ask?
 
By Sgt. B. on June 17, 2005 3:33 PM
Don't get me wrong... My HummVee was great. It would go around, over, or through anything... But there's one thing that a military HummVee has that a civilian Hummer DOESN'T have... ...A motor pool... An M151A2, on the other hand, can be repair with a roll of comm wire, a flatehead screwdriver, an adjustable wrench, and a wad of chewing gum... And if you can't fix it, you can strap it to your back and hike it out...
 
By Sgt. B. on June 17, 2005 3:35 PM
It DOESN'T however, come with Spellchekkur... Neither does your comment section... Ah well...
 
By John of Argghhh! on June 17, 2005 4:48 PM
Well, truth be told - if a Mutt and the budget ever become congruent... Castle Argghhh! will have a jeep, too.
 
By Punctilious on June 17, 2005 6:20 PM
Hug for Neffi. I'll refresh your drink upstairs.
 
By Neffi on June 17, 2005 6:40 PM
Thangya, Punc... and if the Dens convene in Las Vegas sometime- what a co-inky-dink! I'm there that weekend anyway! Whenever it is... heh
 
By Barb on June 17, 2005 7:39 PM
I just Love coincidences - aren't they fun? :-)
 
By MyssiAnn on June 17, 2005 8:06 PM
Neffi - I'm sorry for your loss. There is nothing else I can say. The rest of you: Get a living will and do it now. DO NOT WAIT until you update your wills again. Go by your local hospital and ask for the appropriate paperwork. They'll give it to you and usually have a notary around to make it nice and binding. I say this because I work in healthcare and seeing family members fight over what they think Mom or Dad or Grandma or whomever else wanted is the WORST part of it. Having it in writing makes it simple for everyone and saves the petty meanness that has no place in a healing environment. Even if we know all we're doing is keeping the patient comfortable until the end, bickering families do NOT achieve that aim. So, help yourself out here, folks. Get that living will done soon. We can treat you better if we know how you want to be treated and for most of us in healthcare that's what it's all about.
 
By Neffi on June 17, 2005 9:10 PM
Thanks, Missy... and a big 10-4 to your post. My Mom and Dad are both still alive and have both stated in writing their wishes when the time comes- pre and post death. We all come to the end of the trail at some point- that's true of every living being- and taking care of details like this makes it easier for the ones we love. Do it...
 
By 5Wishes on June 17, 2005 9:28 PM
5 Wishes... This is the easiest way to do what MyssiAnn suggests. Go here! Read this site. Get the pamphlet. Convince your company to get it too. Read the site. It's worth the time. www.agingwithdignity.org/5wishes.html PS This aint spam, 5 wishes did not put this here, it just needed to be told
 
By MCart on June 17, 2005 11:55 PM
AY! Not spam? Why post anonymously?
 
By Cricket on June 18, 2005 7:04 AM
You know, I found this particular thread comforting, informative and thank you all for posting. Neffi, here are some cyber hugs: ((((((Neffi)))))) Back to the other thread to partay.