We're the Military and Airpower Guys of Jonah Goldberg of National Review Online + a stray we found wandering around looking lost. All original material JHD, BHD, JR, WT, and KA 2003-2010 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/05/tradoc_reorg.html Sat, 24 Mar 2012 16:02:15 Z Movable Type 4.12 en Copyright 2012 http://www.rssboard.org/rss-specification First - since this is a long boring text post talking about the re-organization of the Army's Training and Doctrine Command, here's something for Just This Guy - a 3 Inch Anti-tank Gun in the collection of the National Infantry Museum, Fort Benning (that's an M1 155mm Long Tom in the background). I finally found the details that LongTabSigO was referring to in his posts on the reorg of TRADOC. While Sanger doesn't get his dream of TRADOC going 'poof' this *does* represent a huge shift in outlook if it holds up through the BRAC process. Looks like all we... http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/05/tradoc_reorg.html http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/05/tradoc_reorg.html Mon, 16 May 2005 13:23:21 -0600 "I wonder if anyone has ever tested a Javelin vs an M1...just to see what would happen." Warhead detonates over engine deck = mobility kill, tank theoretically recoverable, repairable. Crew probably OK Warhead detonates over turret bustle ammo compartments = ammo in ready/semi-ready racks cooks off, blow-off panels on turret roof come off the tank as designed. Crew probably OK, tank repairable by direct-support maintenance unit. Warhead detonates over front portion of turret roof (i.e., over turret fighting compartment = crew likely dead or seriously injured, tank may be repairable. Warhead detonates over front slope of tank = possible damage to the main gun barrel (replaceable in the field by battalion maintenance,) possible death or injury to driver, possible breach of fuel tank. Tank will probably be repairable depending on degree and location of damage. At least, that's my sense of it after having worked with the durned things for 11 or 12 years. ]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/05/tradoc_reorg.html#comment-25037 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/05/tradoc_reorg.html#comment-25037 Thu, 19 May 2005 09:25:08 -0600 I kind of doubt that the Patton Museum is going to move. They've got a motor pool full of artifacts that they don't have room to display. (Who else would WANT an M60A2?) And moving all of those items while protecting them from damage is going to be expensive. And the military isn't doing much to fund museums these days. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/05/tradoc_reorg.html#comment-25036 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/05/tradoc_reorg.html#comment-25036 Thu, 19 May 2005 08:58:45 -0600 The only thing I need to know about tanks is how to kill them. I wonder if anyone has ever tested a Javelin vs an M1...just to see what would happen. Actually, tanks don't confuse me...helicopters, now those things confuse me. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/05/tradoc_reorg.html#comment-24930 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/05/tradoc_reorg.html#comment-24930 Wed, 18 May 2005 07:40:36 -0600 Yeah, besides, all those tanks would just confuse the FNG grunts... Too many moving parts and all... http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/05/tradoc_reorg.html#comment-24921 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/05/tradoc_reorg.html#comment-24921 Tue, 17 May 2005 23:38:18 -0600 As a former TRADOC school Military Historian, I frankly doubt the Patton Museum will move. Fort Knox is staying open, after all. There might be some movement of exhibits between Benning and Knox (probably in trade) but I wouldn't expect there to be a move of the museum. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/05/tradoc_reorg.html#comment-24908 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/05/tradoc_reorg.html#comment-24908 Tue, 17 May 2005 18:21:14 -0600 In response to Heartless Libertarians Patton Museum question (having poetic justice written all over it), there is talk up here at Knox about moving the Patton Museum, although some are quite hesitant because the community just forked over several million dollars last year to expand it. Somebody is in need of a DoD mole. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/05/tradoc_reorg.html#comment-24899 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/05/tradoc_reorg.html#comment-24899 Tue, 17 May 2005 17:28:56 -0600 Dave - might be the reason the move founders... can't have Patton working for Bradley again... http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/05/tradoc_reorg.html#comment-24867 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/05/tradoc_reorg.html#comment-24867 Tue, 17 May 2005 11:16:39 -0600 Oh humble pie - where art thou. My brain must have had too much fibrous food. Where´s the Beano when I need it? http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/05/tradoc_reorg.html#comment-24860 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/05/tradoc_reorg.html#comment-24860 Tue, 17 May 2005 10:02:55 -0600 The proposed Joint Chaplain & Assistant school at Jackson would be the second Joint school here. We've already got the Joint Postal school. What's funny is that they don't do Joint PT. Each service group does their own. Which, as far as I can tell, means the Navy and Air Force go get coffee, the Marines run 10 miles every day in their super-short PT shorts, and the Army folks to mostly push-ups and sit-ups. And if they're moving the Armor school to Ft Benning, does that mean the Patton Museum will be moving there as well? And would Patton again be subordinate to Bradley, museum wise? http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/05/tradoc_reorg.html#comment-24852 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/05/tradoc_reorg.html#comment-24852 Tue, 17 May 2005 08:09:05 -0600 still in service* - scroll to bottom of the page.]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/05/tradoc_reorg.html#comment-24844 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/05/tradoc_reorg.html#comment-24844 Tue, 17 May 2005 06:36:36 -0600 Say, where is everybody? Hello? Did y'all actually try to read all of that acronym-rich bureaucratese, and contract acute, severe, narcolepsy? Y'all do know, of course, that if you fall forwards, the drool will hurt yer keyboards! http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/05/tradoc_reorg.html#comment-24840 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/05/tradoc_reorg.html#comment-24840 Tue, 17 May 2005 01:39:56 -0600 Thanx again, JoA. Boqui, I dunno about that. I think there were complaints by some of the guys in DEs that that gun would not reliably make a hole in the pressure hull of a U-Boot. Ain't that the one which was adapted to be the 76mm gun in the later Shermans, with disappointing results? As for the BRAC, and re-organization stuff, OMG, MEGO! Reminds me of that poem, "Naming of Parts". Am afraid I'd have my eyes looking out the classroom window if I had to listen to a lecture on that topic. I'd be looking at the birds and bees, "easing the spring." Yah I know it's important, affects Nat'l Security, Real Estate, Jobs, etc etc, but it's so hard to pay attention to that kind of stuff. What makes it worse, is that that kind of stuff really is important, but bores most people to tears, even though it may affect them, and they need to know about it. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/05/tradoc_reorg.html#comment-24835 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/05/tradoc_reorg.html#comment-24835 Mon, 16 May 2005 23:51:01 -0600 Ah the 3-Inch Fitty. Funny how this Naval Gun got slapped on a Pack Cassion and rebaptized in to a Tank Killer. Guess that if its good enough against ships at sea, its good enough against ships at land too. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/05/tradoc_reorg.html#comment-24825 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/05/tradoc_reorg.html#comment-24825 Mon, 16 May 2005 20:58:14 -0600 Yes, John, you have. Thanks for reminding us what reverting to a little army bereft of governmental love and affection is like. Stop gloating. It's rude. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/05/tradoc_reorg.html#comment-24823 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/05/tradoc_reorg.html#comment-24823 Mon, 16 May 2005 20:45:04 -0600 Dis I ever tell you about the Combat Training Centre in Camp Gagetown, with its four constituents being the Armour School, School of Artillery, Infantry School and Tactics School? Cheers JMH http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/05/tradoc_reorg.html#comment-24821 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/05/tradoc_reorg.html#comment-24821 Mon, 16 May 2005 20:41:33 -0600 Good read, not much to say, except I think there are going to be issues with land use and growth, especially with places like Leonard Wood which is bounded by the Mark twain National Forest, and already has a ton of envrionmental restrictions. As for Knox, well, I guess I'm saddend by the loss of the Armor School there, but then the thought of a TRADOC shake-up does offset the gloom... :-) Good stuff, thanks! Of course, on a final note, I suppose it'd be reasonable for the DoD to consolidate the CAS function with the ADA/FA centers, since they all have the same mission, eh. I can see it, A10s vs. Avengers with them and the FA competeing for air space... yowzah! http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/05/tradoc_reorg.html#comment-24816 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/05/tradoc_reorg.html#comment-24816 Mon, 16 May 2005 16:11:07 -0600 I'm applying for Vice-Geek, as I too have been pouring over the BRAC recommendations all weekend. I'm disappointed my home post of Fort Knox will no longer be the Home of Armor and Cavalry, but very pleased Knox has apparently positioned themselves for future growth by nabbing some combat units and a BCT. Oh, to be a real estate agent around Fort Benning! http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/05/tradoc_reorg.html#comment-24811 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/05/tradoc_reorg.html#comment-24811 Mon, 16 May 2005 14:39:36 -0600 BD - when I look in the dictionary under Ubergeek, I see your picture... the one of you standing out at the NTC as a battalion commander, in your rumpled NBC suit with windblown hair (what there was even then) holding forth in your schoolmarmish way... right before your task force kicked the crap outta the OPFOR. As for your question - I dunno - but mebbe some readers do! http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/05/tradoc_reorg.html#comment-24807 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/05/tradoc_reorg.html#comment-24807 Mon, 16 May 2005 14:15:19 -0600 I guess I qualify as an Ubergeek since I read this before you posted it, and have read the entire BRAC report as well. Branches have outlived their function. We now have combined arms battalions in the heavy force, so it only makes sense to train the soldiers for these battalions at the same place. I say let's organize and train the way we intend to fight. Use the Regiments to sustain the Army's lineage, traditions, and heritage. BTW, the 2d Battalion, 7th Infantry is a combined arms battalion in the new modular 3d Infantry Division. It has two tank companies and two Bradley-equipped infantry companies. What color are the guidons of the tank companies? What branch insignia do they display, and what regimental numerals are embroidered on those guidons? Just curious. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/05/tradoc_reorg.html#comment-24805 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/05/tradoc_reorg.html#comment-24805 Mon, 16 May 2005 14:02:22 -0600