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  <id>tag:www.thedonovan.com,2012://1/tag:www.thedonovan.com,2005://1.4031-</id>
  <updated>2012-03-24T16:02:21Z</updated>
  <title>Comments for Good.</title>
  <subtitle>We&apos;re the Military and Airpower Guys of Jonah Goldberg of National Review Online + a stray we found wandering around looking lost.  All original material JHD, BHD, JR, WT,  and KA 2003-2010</subtitle>
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  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.thedonovan.com,2005://1.4031</id>
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    <link rel="service.edit" type="application/atom+xml" href="http://www.thedonovan.com/cgi-bin/mt41/mt-atom.cgi/weblog/blog_id=1/entry_id=4031" title="Good." />
    <published>2005-05-13T21:43:28Z</published>
    <updated>2006-11-11T16:53:02Z</updated>
    <title>Good.</title>
    <summary>Another Abu Ghraib scalp. Colonel Pappas. ROFASix links to this post here (I&apos;m doing this because ROFASix got confused and left his own trackback code in there - the trackback link doesn&apos;t lead to the post) NOTR&apos;s mileage varies from mine, and his viewpoint is worthy of consideration - you should take the time to go read it. I&apos;m going to post my response here - the one I left in NOTR&apos;s comments. His last para reads: What is clear is that this whole thing strikes me as a railroad job by a system trying to atone for its own...</summary>
    <author>
      <name>The Armorer</name>
      <uri>http://www.thedonovan.com</uri>
    </author>
    
    <category term="Observations on things Military" />
    
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      <![CDATA[<p>Another Abu Ghraib scalp.  <b><a href="http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20050512-111801-2679r.htm">Colonel Pappas</a></b>.</p>

<p><b><a href="http://rofasix.blogspot.com/2005/05/col-pappas-railroad-job.html">ROFASix links to this post here</a></b> (I'm doing this because ROFASix got confused and left his own trackback code in there - the trackback link doesn't lead to the post)</p>

<p>NOTR's mileage varies from mine, and his viewpoint is worthy of consideration - you should take the time to go read it.</p>

<p>I'm going to post my response here - the one I left in NOTR's comments.</p>

<p>His last para reads:</p>

<blockquote>
What is clear is that this whole thing strikes me as a railroad job by a system trying to atone for its own shortfalls. I would love to buy Col. Pappas a beer to hear the “rest of the story.” I suspect it would be so much different from what we read today.
</blockquote>

<p>This is my response:</p>

<p>Pappas had access to counsel, and if he thought he had a defensible case, he could have refused the Article 15 and taken it to a Courts Martial.</p>

<p>While the system can grind anyone down, the overwhelming reluctance of the services to put senior officers on trial (which is misplaced in my view, but that's a different issue) suggests to me that they had a solid dereliction case against Colonel Pappas, probably via documents - unlike now-Colonel Karpinski.</p>

<p>Pappas is senior enough, and has probably sat on enough panels himself to know that if he took it to a Court, he was going to lose.</p>

<p>And, unlike that whining pusillanimous weakling Karpinski, have you considered the possibility that Pappas accepts responsibility for his actions - especially given the political and military cost of Abu Ghraib?</p>

<p>Pappas indeed was found guilty of choosing poorly, <i>precisely</i> because of the cost of his decision.</p>

<p>Just like, when someone runs a red light inadvertently and are ticketed for same - vice running that light inadvertently and killing someone in the process. Same action, same bad choice, same level of intent - with far different consequences.  So the response of the system is far different, as well.</p>

<p>I stand by my earlier opinion - Good.</p>]]>
      
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  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.thedonovan.com,2005://1.4031-comment:24686</id>
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    <title>Comment from CDR Salamander on 2005-05-15</title>
    <author>
        <name>CDR Salamander</name>
        <uri>http://cdrsalamander.blogspot.com</uri>
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="http://cdrsalamander.blogspot.com">
        <![CDATA[In some ways, Pappas can walk away with some sense of dignity and professional respect.  

Karpinski?  She is about two shades from some Sea Lawyer caught trying to get away from a drug pop using "<a href="http://www.whizzinator.com/" rel="nofollow">The Wizzinator</a>."
]]>
    </content>
    <published>2005-05-15T16:35:43Z</published>
    <updated>2005-05-15T16:35:43Z</updated>
  </entry>
  
  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.thedonovan.com,2005://1.4031-comment:24657</id>
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    <title>Comment from Cricket on 2005-05-14</title>
    <author>
        <name>Cricket</name>
        
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="">
        You see, it is interesting to me about the command level knowledge, because in this he should have known about it, having more than just NCOs and lower ranking officers beneath him, he had the care of prisoners of war.  KNOWING what your people are doing while on the job is the job of a commander, and in the theatre of operations, knowing what they are up to while OFF duty is his responsibility as well. 

That is a vastly different take on it that being a micromanager.  It has to do with accountability for so much on so many levels.  If someone is killed or hurt on your watch, you have the accountability of what happened.


    </content>
    <published>2005-05-14T14:52:20Z</published>
    <updated>2005-05-14T14:52:20Z</updated>
  </entry>
  
  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.thedonovan.com,2005://1.4031-comment:24653</id>
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    <title>Comment from John of Argghhh on 2005-05-14</title>
    <author>
        <name>John of Argghhh</name>
        <uri>http://www.thedonovan.com</uri>
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="http://www.thedonovan.com">
        There wasn&apos;t a Courts Martial, Cricket.  Pappas was offered an Article 15 proceeding (non-judicial punishment for those who don&apos;t know).  The Colonel could have refused the NJP and taken the Court.  

Obviously the Colonel and his counsel decided that the NJP was a better deal than the felony conviction.

You aren&apos;t supposed to offer an Article 15 unless you have the evidence to take it to a Court.
    </content>
    <published>2005-05-14T14:13:48Z</published>
    <updated>2005-05-14T14:13:48Z</updated>
  </entry>
  
  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.thedonovan.com,2005://1.4031-comment:24650</id>
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    <title>Comment from Cassandra on 2005-05-14</title>
    <author>
        <name>Cassandra</name>
        <uri>http://www.villainouscompany.com/vcblog</uri>
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="http://www.villainouscompany.com/vcblog">
        <![CDATA[FBL, I don't think you're clueless.

The Naval services have a tradition that the CO is, in the end, accountable for whatever happens under his command. That you didn't "know" about something improper (if it's ongoing behavior) is completely irrelevant - you should have. That was your job.

It's not a civilian standard of <i>individual</i> accountability, it's the accountability of a leader for the actions of those under his command.  It seems unfair to the individual, but that's beside the point.]]>
    </content>
    <published>2005-05-14T13:57:52Z</published>
    <updated>2005-05-14T13:57:52Z</updated>
  </entry>
  
  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.thedonovan.com,2005://1.4031-comment:24649</id>
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    <title>Comment from Fuzzybear Lioness on 2005-05-14</title>
    <author>
        <name>Fuzzybear Lioness</name>
        
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="">
        As I understand it, Pappas&apos; dereliction of duty consisted of more than not ensuring proper training.  It was also a lack of effective supervision of those under him.  I remember people on this site discussing Graner and asking, &quot;Where were the NCOs and JOs?  Why wasn&apos;t someone dropping in on him?&quot;  

So, if that&apos;s reasonable, then isn&apos;t Pappas culpable for not not properly managing and evaluating his NCOs/JOs and making sure they were doing their jobs with proper oversight/discipline and leadership?  Isn&apos;t it then a leadership failure on Pappas&apos; part (&quot;it starts at the top,&quot; and all that)?  It seems to me that there&apos;s no significant criminal behavior by Pappas since he didn&apos;t know about it, but the very fact that it happened and he didn&apos;t know it is a huge leadership failure--thus the loss of command, right?

Sure, the other charges (i.e. dogs) may be perfunctory, but the core issue is a leadership failure (from the top down, people weren&apos;t doing their jobs correctly).

Or am I totally clueless here?
    </content>
    <published>2005-05-14T13:08:47Z</published>
    <updated>2005-05-14T13:08:47Z</updated>
  </entry>
  
  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.thedonovan.com,2005://1.4031-comment:24640</id>
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    <title>Comment from Cricket on 2005-05-13</title>
    <author>
        <name>Cricket</name>
        
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="">
        I dunno...the Army has that little weasel clause about removing officers for &apos;poor judgment.&apos;
How do you define poor judgment?  Highly subjective
and when deaths are caused, it isn&apos;t always the command climate, or just the NCOs.  However, in this case, it seems that people were sent to do a job that they were not trained for, and if the command was aware of it, then they should have detained them until the professionals got there, or rotated the pros in and out and just guarded them.


I am also curious about the courts martial.  Usually the Army won&apos;t convene one unless their case is solid.  If it wasn&apos;t, then why didn&apos;t COL Pappas fight it?
    </content>
    <published>2005-05-14T04:04:11Z</published>
    <updated>2005-05-14T04:04:11Z</updated>
  </entry>
  
  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.thedonovan.com,2005://1.4031-comment:24637</id>
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    <title>Comment from NOTR on 2005-05-13</title>
    <author>
        <name>NOTR</name>
        <uri>http://rofasix.blogspot.com</uri>
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="http://rofasix.blogspot.com">
        Good? I don&apos;t know Pappas. I know only what I read in the press, and we all know how badly that can mislead.

From what I see is Pappas was found guilty of &quot;authorizing dogs in the area to intimidate&quot; and failure to train in interrogation procedures. The first strikes me as what one uses when they cannot find some other UCMJ charge to bring. I must have missed that AR prohibiting dogs...but I was never a MI guy. The second is one you can find in any commanders trackrecord. Charges though, depend on  what bites them in the butt. 

How much of the chain of command got &quot;ripped&quot; after the 507th Maintenance Company&apos;s debacle? They pretty much went on to have careers didn&apos;t they? What happened there was a classic failure of training, preparation and planning. That was classic dereliction. Not only had the command failed to keep their soldiers trained in basic soldiering, they sent them on a &quot;road trip&quot; with  inadequate planning, no apparent training or rehearsal for what they were going to do or encounter and evidently no pre-departure checks.

Where was the assessement of responsibility for that one? Nothing happened though - I guess we just needed the pictures to P.O. our Army eh? 

Using the apparent definition of &quot;dereliction&quot; applied in the Pappas case we would have seen 75% of commmanders &quot;removed for cause&quot; because of the woeful ASE and NBC training before Gulf 91 and OIF. But we didn&apos;t, thanks to almost zip use of chemicals and ADA systems. It is only a &quot;dereliction&quot; issue when &quot;it&quot; bites butts.

The problem always was mission reality, not enough time, training resource shortages, and so on. A &quot;successful&quot; commander is blessed with a competent staff and good guesses as he steers his unit through that minefield of reality of command. The other commander chooses poorly, or lacks good folks. Both thought face the same systemic issues. 

Pappas had a problem. Too much to do. Bad guys to deal with, too few people, and a wide disparity of qualifications of his subordinates. It is not clear to me whether his actions or inactions had very much to do with Abu Ghraib. What is clear is  that if you were &quot;around the place&quot; you were guilty of at least association using the fuzzy logic evident here.

I am less sure that your &quot;good&quot; is deserved. This strikes me as a railroad job by a system trying to atone for it&apos;s own shortfalls.

(Oh crude! I think I just wrote my next blog entry! Thanks for getting my rotors movin&apos; on this subject [LOL] )

    </content>
    <published>2005-05-14T02:34:00Z</published>
    <updated>2005-05-14T02:34:00Z</updated>
  </entry>
  
  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.thedonovan.com,2005://1.4031-comment:24631</id>
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    <title>Comment from Walter E. Wallis on 2005-05-13</title>
    <author>
        <name>Walter E. Wallis</name>
        
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="">
        Soounds appropriate. Now get the rest of the Hillary generals and put them where they can do no harm to fighting troops - I would suggest base closing.
Finally, I want to know Michael Moore&apos;s roll in soliciting videos of grabass. We know his agents were in the field when the Abu crap came down.
    </content>
    <published>2005-05-14T00:37:07Z</published>
    <updated>2005-05-14T00:37:07Z</updated>
  </entry>
  
  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.thedonovan.com,2005://1.4031-comment:24627</id>
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    <title>Comment from Fuzzybear Lioness on 2005-05-13</title>
    <author>
        <name>Fuzzybear Lioness</name>
        
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="">
        Yup.  Nice to see.
    </content>
    <published>2005-05-13T23:44:37Z</published>
    <updated>2005-05-13T23:44:37Z</updated>
  </entry>
  
  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.thedonovan.com,2005://1.4031-comment:24626</id>
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    <title>Comment from Cricket on 2005-05-13</title>
    <author>
        <name>Cricket</name>
        
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="">
        who says we don&apos;t punish our own?  
    </content>
    <published>2005-05-13T23:43:48Z</published>
    <updated>2005-05-13T23:43:48Z</updated>
  </entry>
  
  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.thedonovan.com,2005://1.4031-comment:24623</id>
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    <title>Comment from Cassandra on 2005-05-13</title>
    <author>
        <name>Cassandra</name>
        <uri>http://www.villainouscompany.com/vcblog</uri>
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="http://www.villainouscompany.com/vcblog">
        Bloodthirsty ogre :)
    </content>
    <published>2005-05-13T22:37:13Z</published>
    <updated>2005-05-13T22:37:13Z</updated>
  </entry>
  
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