We're the Military and Airpower Guys of Jonah Goldberg of National Review Online + a stray we found wandering around looking lost. All original material JHD, BHD, JR, WT, and KA 2003-2010 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/04/vietnam30.html Sat, 24 Mar 2012 16:02:35 Z Movable Type 4.12 en Copyright 2012 http://www.rssboard.org/rss-specification Both Dusty and I, and two other friends of mine, contributed information to help Blogfather Jonah write his column that appears in today's edition of USA Today. Might as well share our thoughts with all y'all. Of the four of us, Bennett nailed it best I think (see the Flash Traffic/Extended Entry). Bennett also provided the best paragraphical summary: Saw it in the print version this morning. Monday night, PBS had a conventional wisdom piece about the end of the war in 1975. Hardly a word about the massive conventional force attack by the PAVN, seems that ARVN just... http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/04/vietnam30.html http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/04/vietnam30.html Thu, 28 Apr 2005 14:37:20 -0600 I forgotten that picture. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the guy throwing the punch was Ed Daley (Daily, maybe) president of World Airways, landed at Da Nang (maybe Hue) with a DC-8 or something similar to help with evac and was mobbed as soon as he taxied. They barely got out of there, it was panic time for most of the ARVN. I was stationed in Missouri during that period. I remember being depressed by it all. Then not long after that we get that idiot Carter for CnC and that didn't do much for morale or the budget. It took Reagan's election to finally give us in uniform someone who we respected and sensed that the feelings were mutual, plus some adequate funding to do the job. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/04/vietnam30.html#comment-23897 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/04/vietnam30.html#comment-23897 Sat, 30 Apr 2005 23:31:42 -0600 I remember the pictures of the helicopters being pushed overboard and the famous one of the Embassy. But what I really remember well,is reading in the Vancouver Sun(I believe) that some members of the NDP(New Democratic Party) were having a wine and cheese party to celebrate.......Being only about 19 at the time,I wasn't terribly politicially informed.But even then I realized that it was just wrong,and actually ,evil. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/04/vietnam30.html#comment-23692 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/04/vietnam30.html#comment-23692 Fri, 29 Apr 2005 21:17:53 -0600 Cricket, though my heart has been full, I haven't commented on this thread yet, because I didn't know what to say. But now you've said it perfectly. A tip of the hat to you all, gentlemen, and a heart too full for words. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/04/vietnam30.html#comment-23671 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/04/vietnam30.html#comment-23671 Fri, 29 Apr 2005 15:15:56 -0600 I don't know what to say on threads like this, as the war I saw was on television and my father counseled vets. But I do know that the fall of Saigon was not the fault of the military but the leadership. Which brings me to something else: Wherever you have gone in life from that point to this, I have seen honor and pride for having served from all of the veterans that I know. And that, gentlemen, is a true victory. Holding one's head high in spite of the setbacks. Being gracious under fire. Yes, I wish Hanoi had fallen. But it is over and we have all of you...welcome home. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/04/vietnam30.html#comment-23668 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/04/vietnam30.html#comment-23668 Fri, 29 Apr 2005 14:37:47 -0600 I just stood behind my Dad in the family room, watching the blood flow from the 5 Purple Hearts his tour in Vietnam garnered... as a little bit of his soul leaked out of each one, as he sat watching the television. I think that was the day he decided to turn down the promotion to BG and retire, though his official answer was, and still is, "There was not enough room in the Army for both myself and John." At least that's what he said on the day he retired, as I stood in the ranks in my shiny new uniform. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/04/vietnam30.html#comment-23651 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/04/vietnam30.html#comment-23651 Fri, 29 Apr 2005 11:28:00 -0600 Sanger, I too remember those days in early '75, for I was one of those "grizzled old NCO's" of which you spoke so well. "Feeling" old at 26, an E-6 Plt Sgt Veteran of two tours, I watched as President Ford called on Congress for funding (albeit too little too late) to stop the fall of Siagon. I actually thought we were going to get a chance to go back and "do it right" this time. It was not to be. Congress refused the money of course.........the disgrace of the end was at hand and all we could do was watch in disgust, each of us privately wishing we had done more, something, anything better when we were there.....or had stayed longer. Tradition around here dictates that each year on 30 April I retrive, from it's carefully archived place in the bottom of the sock drawer, that yellowed copy of the Baltimore Sun edition of 30 April 75. Time spent rereading the events of the day, reflecting on the events that brought us to that point in history, and of course the obligitory annual trip to Fiddler's Green that Bill spoke of earlier. This year, thanks in part to posts here, and comments made I have decided to break with tradition. The old yellow newspaper is here on the desk, out early, and I think perhaps it's time for it to be seen by someone besides me. Perhaps we did do the best we could. Perhaps it's time to take some of my friends and family on that stroll across Fiddler's Green and introduce them to some old friends that weren't there to watch the end. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/04/vietnam30.html#comment-23646 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/04/vietnam30.html#comment-23646 Fri, 29 Apr 2005 11:07:23 -0600 Bill You seem to have difficulty standing ... Cheers JMH http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/04/vietnam30.html#comment-23645 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/04/vietnam30.html#comment-23645 Fri, 29 Apr 2005 11:04:17 -0600 I've penned this in other venues... In April of 1975, I was a 9 year old kid living aboard Subic Bay Naval Base. It so happened that my dad "had the duty" when the first indicators came in that South Vietnam was going completely cease to exist. The next few days were chaotic for everyone, as the powers that be scrambled to put together an infrastructure to support the massive wave of humanity that was on its way to us. They transformed the recreation facility called Grande Island into a massive tent city. The Seabees, Marines, Naval engineers, Red Cross, and others worked long hours getting everything ready. My Dad was detailed to take charge of any South Vietnamese warships, and my Mom was a Red Cross Volunteer, and I didn't see much of either of them for days (we had Lina, our Filipino maid - heartwarming and humorous stories starring her later- to keep an eye on yours truely...) We had toy drives, we have blood drives, and I remember being able to pick up on the anger and frustration of dern near every Navy man or Marine that I knew. As I was in the "inner circle" as a dependant, I wasn't subjected to the eventual steam vents, and, thankfully, those who vented took great care to spare us in the support role... Details of the lessons I learned while walking the decks of "dead" SVN warships has been documented. Years later, I sought out my brethern (and sisters) who served during that time, and received an incredible amount of insight and wisdom... http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/04/vietnam30.html#comment-23644 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/04/vietnam30.html#comment-23644 Fri, 29 Apr 2005 10:58:28 -0600 Ref the guy who disagreed with Jonah: This chapter of the history books has been re-written so often of late that it's hard to keep up with the changes. From my perspective, it's like telling a D-Day vet that he actually landed in Bulgaria... Sanger - I was sitting in the Annex (the informal, no-rank-pulling-allowed, O+WO+NCO bar) at Fort Dix when all that played out. Dead silence. We were all too ashamed of what was going on to even cuss... Jtg - Thanks for the offer, buddy, but I won't line-jump. Uhhhh--if you're standing behind FbL or the Were-Kitten, though... [*PG-17 starts low-crawling toward the door*] http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/04/vietnam30.html#comment-23636 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/04/vietnam30.html#comment-23636 Fri, 29 Apr 2005 09:27:10 -0600 Gettin serious: I often wonder what would have happened, had myself and people of my own age, suddenly got bugs up our asses and joined up en masse in 1969 (when I turned 18). I still have very serious very mixed emotions about my not-participation in that particular adventure. I've often said that I was not a conscientious objector, but an intellectual objector, as the war was fought in a very stupid manner. Maybe that's just an excuse I'm making for my cowardice at the time? I dunno. I do believe that the other side were the bad guys. Whatever, the river of time flows always downhill, and I can't go back now and do the time-machine thing. Chief Bill and his comrades are welcome to cut in front of me in any queue we're in. It's the least I can do. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/04/vietnam30.html#comment-23618 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/04/vietnam30.html#comment-23618 Thu, 28 Apr 2005 22:36:26 -0600 Sanger- Great story. Thanks for sharing with us. Neffi- #82. That's all I have to say. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/04/vietnam30.html#comment-23617 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/04/vietnam30.html#comment-23617 Thu, 28 Apr 2005 22:30:12 -0600 Um, when I was in AFROTC, FAG stood for "Financial Assistance Grant", until somebody clued them, and it was changed to FAP, "Financial Assistance Plan." snork http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/04/vietnam30.html#comment-23616 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/04/vietnam30.html#comment-23616 Thu, 28 Apr 2005 22:17:38 -0600 In Feb/Mar of 1975, I was transferring from Ft. Hood to Schofield Barrachs to the 25th Div. Our flights out of Travis were taken so that medical and comms folks could be sent to Guam to help with the evac. We ended up taking Aloha Airlines to Oahu. I reported to the 25th Repo Depot on a Friday, and was told to lay low but near, the Division was on pre-alert (for lack of a better term), and that I had better be there first thing Monday Morning. Great. I slept in an outrigger canoe on Waikiki beach that night, in front of the Outrigger Hotel. The next week, we POM'd like fiends as I got matched with my unit (35th Inf), and I got shots I never expected to have, like Bubonic Plague, etc. And so my first two weeks in the 25th were on quasi alert status waiting to see if we were going to be sent to Vietnam. I was an E-3 in an Infantry CSC (we still had 106mm RR's back then); it was a bit scary. My Platoon Sgt and all but one other NCO in the my chain of command had been to Vietnam, and some of them were really, truly wanting to go back "to show the $#(^% commies we didn't loose the *$%&^@$R war!" My PSG claimed he actually liked killing people and was hoping to get the chance to do some more of it. He acted genuinely dissapointed that we didn't go back. I can't say I was. Later (this month back then), I remember vividily sitting in the dayroom watching the last days. I especially remember a scene where hueys were landing on an Aircraft carrier, disgorging people, and then being pushed overboard (some with blades still turning). There were a lot of pissed off people in my unit then--I'll never forget--some tears among the NCOs and officers. I was unfortunately too young and knew too little (just turned 19), to really understand it all. For those that don't know, the 25th had a long history in Vietnam, and a lot of the people in the Division when I was in Hawaii had served with it in Vietnam. Frankly, the fall of Vietnam was a pretty tense time in the 25th... I imagine that was true all over the Army at the time.... ~SangerM http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/04/vietnam30.html#comment-23612 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/04/vietnam30.html#comment-23612 Thu, 28 Apr 2005 21:46:14 -0600 ewwwwwwwwwww....... careful what you wish for, Were-Kitty. Big John 'putting it all out there' would have the PG17 gibbering in horror... heh http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/04/vietnam30.html#comment-23601 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/04/vietnam30.html#comment-23601 Thu, 28 Apr 2005 21:02:22 -0600 Thanks for the love, John. And thanks for putting it all out there. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/04/vietnam30.html#comment-23599 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/04/vietnam30.html#comment-23599 Thu, 28 Apr 2005 20:51:43 -0600 So, you're just going to leave it at that, no links, pointers, nothing? Just twisting slowly in the breeze, the rope squeaking now and then? http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/04/vietnam30.html#comment-23583 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/04/vietnam30.html#comment-23583 Thu, 28 Apr 2005 15:37:38 -0600 I believe some other folks were having this conversation. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/04/vietnam30.html#comment-23582 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/04/vietnam30.html#comment-23582 Thu, 28 Apr 2005 15:31:37 -0600