We're the Military and Airpower Guys of Jonah Goldberg of National Review Online + a stray we found wandering around looking lost. All original material JHD, BHD, JR, WT, and KA 2003-2007 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/03/617th_mp_co_aar.html Sun, 03 Aug 2008 17:25:36 Z Movable Type 4.12 en Copyright 2008 http://www.rssboard.org/rss-specification What a difference timing makes. Two posts down, in an update, I talk about the AAR (After Action Review) covering the fight of the 617th MP Company. I lament Blackfive got it published first. Hey, we *hate* being scooped! Like I said, Matt got it via different sources, and his didn't come with any markings or from sources that might give cause for pause... mine came in ways that I felt I had to get permission first. [update: From chattng with Matt, he got his copy from different sources, and vetted it from different sources] So, I asked the author... http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/03/617th_mp_co_aar.html http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/03/617th_mp_co_aar.html Fri, 25 Mar 2005 14:27:06 -0600 Oh, Boqui, that reminds me of a story. Read it in a motorcycle mag years ago. It was about the demise of BSA bikes. It seems that the cylinders for the BSA twins were bored on machines which had been produced and bought to bore gun barrels in the First World War. Due to Britain's (lack of) industrial policy, those machine tools had never been repaired or replaced. This caused no problems until, I think, about 1968, when the last old geezer machinist who knew how to allow for the wear in the old boring machine, retired. His replacement was some earnest young guy who actually believed that the index marks and graduations on the machine had some relation to what the machine was doing. As I recall, almost every BSA bike produced that year seized its pistons because the cylinders were wrongly bored. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/03/617th_mp_co_aar.html#comment-19407 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/03/617th_mp_co_aar.html#comment-19407 Sun, 27 Mar 2005 22:05:50 -0600 Thanks for posting. A great story, showing the greatness of our troops. A big thank you to those involved, and many prayers. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/03/617th_mp_co_aar.html#comment-19390 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/03/617th_mp_co_aar.html#comment-19390 Sun, 27 Mar 2005 15:31:37 -0600 maybe not...]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/03/617th_mp_co_aar.html#comment-19320 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/03/617th_mp_co_aar.html#comment-19320 Sat, 26 Mar 2005 09:38:11 -0600 Interesting linked video shot by "insurgents". To this old video news shooter, it appears that haji was more interested in saving his tail than getting footage. Evident panic and loss of mission focus produced completely useless video, but it is instructive of the lack of discipline within his ranks. Hope he continues to have the same problem with his sight picture. Well done to the troops for professionalism under fire and special kudos to those noncoms that made it happen! http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/03/617th_mp_co_aar.html#comment-19317 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/03/617th_mp_co_aar.html#comment-19317 Sat, 26 Mar 2005 08:59:17 -0600 All the denizens of this castle, have made great observations & comments on the unit level AAR. Thus, I can't add anything else that's new and insightful. On the ammo... Lake City is pumping out as many M33's as they can, and agree with John, that Rock Island should get off its duff, and start looking abroad for quality ammo. Last year, IMI got a juicy IDIQ for M855's, when it partnered with American Ammunition. This is just a first step in the right direction. There is however a weak link in the logistics train, and its the Links. With low pricing, the link market collapsed. The last manufacturer standing was Valentec & about four years ago, it folded its Costa Mesa, CA plant. ATK swooped down and purchased all its machinery and trucked it back to Lake City. But here is the kicker: the presses are all ancient and require skilled pressmen to constantly eyeball their calibration and operation. This is a skill that is acquired over many years of on-the-job trial & error. That meant that for ATK to operate them, it needed VALENTEC's old pressmen to tend the machines. All of these pressmen, were in their 50/60's and did not have a HighSchool Diploma (Old School). But because ATK's Anaul Retentive HR rules require that all of its employees have a HighSchool/GED Diploma, none could be hired - NO EXCEPTIONS. European manufacturers have a similar situation. As a result, the M27, M13 & M9 production suffered greatly. Worldwide, delivery for linked ammo, specially 7.62's are backordered for 18 months. Oh, and on .40 Cal. The USCG just issued an IDIQ for this caliber; minimum quantities of 200,000 per year I believe. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/03/617th_mp_co_aar.html#comment-19316 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/03/617th_mp_co_aar.html#comment-19316 Sat, 26 Mar 2005 08:40:05 -0600 Sanger- AWESOME IDEA, DUDE! John- You'll be happy to know I read it here first, not at B5. :-) I am so glad you posted this, along with the commentary. I like your attitude about women in the military- if you're gonna join, you'd better be prepared to put your butt on the line- and protect the butts of those around you. Fantastic!!! High-Fives all around ladies! Whoop! Whoop! Whoop! I love the details about the vehicles being packed the same way, and the results from the AAR. Really good stuff, John. And they happen to be Kentucky kids- just a hop over the river from me. The Kentucky kids lost one last weekend due to a roadside bomb, so they had more than just pride at stake. A little revenge and a lot of training go a long way. HOO-RAAH! http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/03/617th_mp_co_aar.html#comment-19315 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/03/617th_mp_co_aar.html#comment-19315 Sat, 26 Mar 2005 06:27:12 -0600 I thought convoys were supposed to have helicopter support. Sounds like they could have used some. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/03/617th_mp_co_aar.html#comment-19308 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/03/617th_mp_co_aar.html#comment-19308 Sat, 26 Mar 2005 01:23:29 -0600 THE CLS course is one of the best ideas the Army ever came up with. I think it is better done at home station, not BCT, because then entire platoons our companies that are deploying get it all off the same sheet of music, and get to train up together. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/03/617th_mp_co_aar.html#comment-19303 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/03/617th_mp_co_aar.html#comment-19303 Fri, 25 Mar 2005 22:01:54 -0600 BTW, re: the sidearms, I'm hearing that the MPs will move to .40s shortly. Not as good as the .45s, but easier to make the upgrade happen with a barrel switch. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/03/617th_mp_co_aar.html#comment-19299 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/03/617th_mp_co_aar.html#comment-19299 Fri, 25 Mar 2005 21:07:55 -0600 I've tracked back to your great discussion John from my post over at Winds of Change. Links to video there too. RE: why this squad didn't withdraw, one of the MPs (the other woman) was asked in an interview about her reactions to the ambush and she mentioned that this was their 3rd. The first two were back to back in January. Sounds like the NCOs did a first-rate job of training thereafter (if not before). They'd been shot at before, survived, were trained, had planned the layout of equipment ... did it all right. Turns out a colleague of mine, a female O-5 MP who was in some dicey situations in Bosnia, had seen the AAR earlier in the week but hadn't passed it on ... Thanks so much for making available to us all. BTW, I will be circulating this AAR among my firstie cadets at the Point on Monday. A lot of the guys have branched infantry but several of the gals are going MP, including the young woman I've sponsored for several years. They keep hearing about how important NCOs are in our Army, but events like this one can really build the gut-level respect for their soldiers and their NCOs that they ought to have. We only have these cadets two more months before they're commissioned ... it won't be long before many of them will be in theater. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/03/617th_mp_co_aar.html#comment-19298 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/03/617th_mp_co_aar.html#comment-19298 Fri, 25 Mar 2005 21:04:26 -0600 men were hard on you; now you a$$holes are really in trouble! :-) ]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/03/617th_mp_co_aar.html#comment-19290 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/03/617th_mp_co_aar.html#comment-19290 Fri, 25 Mar 2005 18:34:50 -0600 Read it again for finer points...I am totally in awe. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/03/617th_mp_co_aar.html#comment-19289 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/03/617th_mp_co_aar.html#comment-19289 Fri, 25 Mar 2005 18:26:58 -0600 Wow. I will read it again for the finer points, but aside from that, what struck me was the one you made about organization and discipline with regard to people knowing WHO the bad guys were, where they were and being able to reload effectively and efficiently. That right there would be peace of mind and morale building for ANY NCO or commander. Great story and good on the women. They did well and especially under fire. Noises and explosions always get me. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/03/617th_mp_co_aar.html#comment-19288 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/03/617th_mp_co_aar.html#comment-19288 Fri, 25 Mar 2005 18:19:32 -0600 Tears to my eyes, tears to my eyes. I stand in awe....... As for women in combat, well, I'm a Jew. I've believed that was acceptable and necessary for as long as I can remember, because Jews learned a long time ago that after the men are killed, the women die anyway--just not as quickly or pleasantly. As for me, I didn't like being in mixed units--for reasons given before--but that was in MI units, in the cold war. A different time, different people. Wow. Just wow. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/03/617th_mp_co_aar.html#comment-19286 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/03/617th_mp_co_aar.html#comment-19286 Fri, 25 Mar 2005 18:12:36 -0600 Quibble on doctrinal terms: from the description, this sounds like a far ambush, not a near, with the ambushers being outside hand grenade range. We've just been told at Ft Jackson that we'll soon be getting M-2s, along with M-240Bs and Mk-19s, for basic training. Wonder if some of that .50 BMG ball shortfall is in ASPs at basic training posts. A final random note: last year, when TRADOC was considering various COAs for upgrading BCT for the COE (glossary: COA=Course of Action; BCT=Basic Combat Training; COE=Contemporary Operating Environment) one option included putting every soldier through the 40 hour CLS course. I think that option meant extending BCT out to 11 weeks from the current 9. Army doesn't have the resources-both personnel and facilities-to support that COA. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/03/617th_mp_co_aar.html#comment-19285 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/03/617th_mp_co_aar.html#comment-19285 Fri, 25 Mar 2005 17:51:43 -0600 As a current soldier here in the Bluegrass State, I'm really proud of our National Guardsmen--AND WOMEN--in the execution of their duty this week. I hate to just say "I agree", but as pointed out, their are women in combat, and with the CCB coming down the pipeline, MP's must be included. I'm an 11B, but I know as well as everyone else, that its the MP's out there on convoy duty that are seeing more than their fair share of IED's and ambushes. Lets see to it they're recognized. And I think the CDR should be our new PSYOPS Officer. Too funny. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/03/617th_mp_co_aar.html#comment-19284 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/03/617th_mp_co_aar.html#comment-19284 Fri, 25 Mar 2005 17:45:42 -0600 As a current soldier here in the Bluegrass State, I'm really proud of our National Guardsmen--AND WOMEN--in the execution of their duty this week. I hate to just say "I agree", but as pointed out, their are women in combat, and with the CCB coming down the pipeline, MP's must be included. I'm an 11B, but I know as well as everyone else, that its the MP's out there on convoy duty that are seeing more than their fair share of IED's and ambushes. Lets see to it they're recognized. And I think the CDR should be our new PSYOPS Officer. Too funny. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/03/617th_mp_co_aar.html#comment-19283 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/03/617th_mp_co_aar.html#comment-19283 Fri, 25 Mar 2005 17:45:05 -0600 Outstanding report. While the Navy thinks about the LCS......... Hey, here is a PSYOPS idea. Get a picture of that female SGT's high school picture and send it out to the Jihadi saying something to the effect "This infidel woman just killed a few dozen of your comrads in direct combat. Leave your weapons and go home. Her brother is bigger and better trained....." The Western way of War. VDH will be very proud. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/03/617th_mp_co_aar.html#comment-19282 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/03/617th_mp_co_aar.html#comment-19282 Fri, 25 Mar 2005 17:12:56 -0600 No armed mob can stand before trained warriors- that is a given. We now have an Army that is fully on the par, in terms of small unit cohesion and flexibility with the WWII German Wehrmacht in it's prime.. maybe even better. 9mm No! 10mm auto , Si! yes, I know all about the bitching about load uniformity,(SFC Castaldo was absolute DEATH on that ;-)) I did some of the bitching myself,in the mid-70's , my first year in the Army. But fortunatly, all of our middle and senior NCO's were Vietnam combat vets and so I learned wisdom I fortuiously did not have to bleed for. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/03/617th_mp_co_aar.html#comment-19280 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/03/617th_mp_co_aar.html#comment-19280 Fri, 25 Mar 2005 16:44:26 -0600