We're the Military and Airpower Guys of Jonah Goldberg of National Review Online + a stray we found wandering around looking lost. All original material JHD, BHD, JR, WT, and KA 2003-2007 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/02/a_fight_with_a_cannon_the_uss_san_francisco_grounding.html Sun, 03 Aug 2008 17:28:12 Z Movable Type 4.12 en Copyright 2008 http://www.rssboard.org/rss-specification I asked the submariners I know visit the Castle to come comment on the my post regarding the USS Jimmy Carter. The responses thus far have been interesting, but I am most interested in the post over at Unconsidered Trifles. Not because he discusses the USS Jimmy Carter, which he does, and not favorably from a naming perspective, but rather for his Update to the post, in which he discusses the apparent fate of CDR Mooney, Captain of the USS San Francisco when she ran aground. Apparently things are not going well for the Commander. At Unconsidered Trifles, the Submariner... http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/02/a_fight_with_a_cannon_the_uss_san_francisco_grounding.html http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/02/a_fight_with_a_cannon_the_uss_san_francisco_grounding.html Wed, 16 Feb 2005 14:33:00 -0600 Simple fact of the matter was CDR Mooney was in command. End of story! There was an old saying when I was floating around trying not to hit stuff and it was, "Let the damn boat hit something and you'd best go down with the her!" And then there's Lex's philosphy on the "Three Kiss" rule (although it was called the double kiss when I was around, the last kiss being of recent vintage); "three kiss" rule on being relieved of command, without a band: kiss the ground, kiss another ship, kiss a shipmate." When I was a lowly J.O. I was on a coastal freighter on the backside of the Malaaca Straits somewhere when we absolutely destroyed the wheel, struts, shaft, and even stuffing box on the starboard side when we ripped into an outcropping. I was fifteen minutes away from my wheelhouse duty hanging in the wheelhouse watching the run in and checked the navigation of the other J.O. on duty. He was dead in the middle of a tiny channel according to the charts. Perfect navigation. The Skipper was an old Dutch Captain with 40 years experience (one of my idols btw) and he, along with the XO, was relieved the minute we hit the dock. Nobody did anything wrong. The chart did not show any outcropping what-so-ever but that's what happens when you're in command. I know I would've served with that Skipper anywhere and anytime but that's just simply the way it works. It is something that is understood before you ever get your first command. And this was just civilian stuff. I can imagine the ramifications of doing something like that on a warship! Sh*t happens! And then you die! http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/02/a_fight_with_a_cannon_the_uss_san_francisco_grounding.html#comment-15106 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/02/a_fight_with_a_cannon_the_uss_san_francisco_grounding.html#comment-15106 Fri, 18 Feb 2005 09:00:25 -0600 In most cases I would agree, but not when there is no indication of negligence. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/02/a_fight_with_a_cannon_the_uss_san_francisco_grounding.html#comment-15093 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/02/a_fight_with_a_cannon_the_uss_san_francisco_grounding.html#comment-15093 Fri, 18 Feb 2005 05:21:35 -0600 Ah, Joatmoaf, I kinda agree with Ernie King here, as much as the idea of ever meeting him in some parallel universe frightens me. The captain of a warship is, even if not required to be, better at his job if he is effin' *psychic*! Did somebody say "Fingerspitzengefuehl" here a while back? http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/02/a_fight_with_a_cannon_the_uss_san_francisco_grounding.html#comment-15085 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/02/a_fight_with_a_cannon_the_uss_san_francisco_grounding.html#comment-15085 Fri, 18 Feb 2005 00:49:58 -0600 The Navy Times published a short article about the grounding 2 weeks ago in which it was stated that the mound was not on any current, up to date charts. It went on to say that a USGS (I believe) satallite had detected and flagged that very same mound back in the 70s as a "suspicious object" but no follow up was done. The same article noted that the route the USS San Francisco is commonly used by all subs and navy ships but apparently no one noticed this mountain. I don`t subscribe to Navy Times Online so I couldn`t do a follow up or supply a link. If that info is true however, the skipper is being made into a scapegoat to cover up the fact that the Navy should have known that "object" was there in the first place. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/02/a_fight_with_a_cannon_the_uss_san_francisco_grounding.html#comment-15075 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/02/a_fight_with_a_cannon_the_uss_san_francisco_grounding.html#comment-15075 Thu, 17 Feb 2005 19:44:31 -0600 Well, you were... then you changed (I thought) to a mu.nuvian... so I took off blogspot and replaced it with mu.nu... then I realized that you aren't over to mu.nu yet, so I took that off. You can see where this is going, right? http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/02/a_fight_with_a_cannon_the_uss_san_francisco_grounding.html#comment-15063 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/02/a_fight_with_a_cannon_the_uss_san_francisco_grounding.html#comment-15063 Thu, 17 Feb 2005 17:56:04 -0600 Army Capt wasn't an O-5 or O-6 and I bet he doesn't make it there either. It sucks, it really does, but this is how the Navy works. He isn't the first that this has happened to and he damn well won't be the last. It wasn't the links, John! Maybe the snarkines... just a little... *grin* Hey, am I even on your blogroll??? http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/02/a_fight_with_a_cannon_the_uss_san_francisco_grounding.html#comment-15056 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/02/a_fight_with_a_cannon_the_uss_san_francisco_grounding.html#comment-15056 Thu, 17 Feb 2005 17:00:04 -0600 Why then, if the skipper is a law unto himself and if the charts were incorrect, that that isn't taken into considertion? Like Bubblehead said, he got the sub back to shore and drydock (is that correct) for repairs without further loss of life, and that is no mean feat of sailing or leadership. Just upset, is all. the Army captain who took a wrong turn that resulted in death and capture of ten of his people...what happened with him? He made an error of judgment, wasn't he relieved or did they give him another command? And isn't it kind of the same thing? I am just asking, so please don't bite my head off. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/02/a_fight_with_a_cannon_the_uss_san_francisco_grounding.html#comment-14988 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/02/a_fight_with_a_cannon_the_uss_san_francisco_grounding.html#comment-14988 Thu, 17 Feb 2005 08:22:00 -0600 Over. The Skipper pays for the errors (or non-errors) of his crew. Commander Mooney is another in the long line of Navy casualties by happenstance. A command at sea is like none other. The Skipper is a god unto himself. But gods with only human ankles to support them can topple quickly. I am sure that Commander Mooney knew this condition upon accepting command...but is there any higher calling than that of commanding a fighting vessel of the United States Navy? How could he possibly resist? My condolences and best wishes to Commander Mooney, and to the proud family of the dedicated submariner who lost his life because the goddamn charts were wrong. Both are victims of a cruel and mysterious sea. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/02/a_fight_with_a_cannon_the_uss_san_francisco_grounding.html#comment-14943 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/02/a_fight_with_a_cannon_the_uss_san_francisco_grounding.html#comment-14943 Wed, 16 Feb 2005 21:30:58 -0600 Well, pretty decent Boudi - except I had to entice you over with links and snarks! http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/02/a_fight_with_a_cannon_the_uss_san_francisco_grounding.html#comment-14933 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/02/a_fight_with_a_cannon_the_uss_san_francisco_grounding.html#comment-14933 Wed, 16 Feb 2005 20:48:50 -0600 It's a tough one. My Dad was a Navigator for an aircraft carrier. If that ship ran ashore, the Skipper's career AND the Gator's career was over. Period. End of story. You KNOW that going in. It's the cold hard facts of life. Yeah, I feel for him. The whole situation sucks. But honestly, it is not my place to judge. The Navy has a chain of command and will do what needs to be done. Heh, John, how's that for never commenting? http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/02/a_fight_with_a_cannon_the_uss_san_francisco_grounding.html#comment-14932 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/02/a_fight_with_a_cannon_the_uss_san_francisco_grounding.html#comment-14932 Wed, 16 Feb 2005 20:47:46 -0600 You know, I had a question and declined to post it, hoping Bubblehead would show up. He did. And he answered my question. Thanks. And some traditions suck. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/02/a_fight_with_a_cannon_the_uss_san_francisco_grounding.html#comment-14930 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/02/a_fight_with_a_cannon_the_uss_san_francisco_grounding.html#comment-14930 Wed, 16 Feb 2005 20:42:29 -0600 While many submariners may disagree with Steamer's characterization of the Greeneville collision as simply bad luck, I will agree that both COs, at the most basic level, came up on the wrong side of the odds under the "big ocean, little ship" theory that many submarine commanders operate(d) under. While I think I admit to myself deep down that for no other reason than tradition, CDR Mooney had to be fired, I would like to see some official acknowledgement of his skill in returning his ship to port. Like in the story, a medal along with the headsman (figurative, in the modern case, rather than literal). I've heard there's going to be an awards ceremony for the San Francisco very soon -- let the Navy break its tradition, and give the skipper the recognition for the good that he's done as well. It's a truism that one "aw sh*t" cancels out 100 attaboys, but let's give the man his due, both good and bad... http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/02/a_fight_with_a_cannon_the_uss_san_francisco_grounding.html#comment-14928 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/02/a_fight_with_a_cannon_the_uss_san_francisco_grounding.html#comment-14928 Wed, 16 Feb 2005 20:26:03 -0600 Based on what little I know (from what we've all read here, mostly), I feel for the skipper. It sounded like he was doing all the things he should have been doing, short of getting out and leading the ship. Even so, I remember getting out and ground-guiding my tank, jeep, or truck driver whenever I wasn't sure what was in front of us. I KNOW it isn't the same, but going real fast at levels deeper than normal in poorly charted waters seems a slight bit careless. Like everyone else here, I easily defer to superior knowledge and experience in these matters, but it just seems like they were flying blind with unreliable instruments and no updated NOTAMs. Would simple orders to do that have been enough to make me do it? I don't know. I have been known to modify my actions based on "ground truth," but I guess it's just not for a landlubber like me to judge a sailor. (though a man did die, and that changes things somewhat, I think). What a way to end a career, huh? Just THUMP! -SangerM http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/02/a_fight_with_a_cannon_the_uss_san_francisco_grounding.html#comment-14926 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/02/a_fight_with_a_cannon_the_uss_san_francisco_grounding.html#comment-14926 Wed, 16 Feb 2005 19:59:45 -0600 My boss said it best, I think: "The Navy cannot afford to keep unlucky skippers." The one thing this incident had in common with the USS Greeneville tragedy is that they both involve extremely bad luck; despite all of the differences, they share this trait. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/02/a_fight_with_a_cannon_the_uss_san_francisco_grounding.html#comment-14916 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/02/a_fight_with_a_cannon_the_uss_san_francisco_grounding.html#comment-14916 Wed, 16 Feb 2005 18:58:00 -0600 Woot Hoot Toot! Calloo Callay, Oh Frabjous Day! Thank you Sir, you have posted the original of, and my favorite of, ALL "loose cannon" stories! I am reminded of Admiral Ernie King: Before the Second World War he was most famous (IMHO) for ruining the career of somebody who had something bad (really an Act of God) happen to his ship while being her Captain. IIRC, the Skipper there was being very prudent and cautious and any rational human would have counted him blameless. P.S. I think it was Admiral King's daughter who described him as "The most even-tempered man in the Navy- always in a rage." http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/02/a_fight_with_a_cannon_the_uss_san_francisco_grounding.html#comment-14906 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/02/a_fight_with_a_cannon_the_uss_san_francisco_grounding.html#comment-14906 Wed, 16 Feb 2005 17:18:16 -0600 Old Vic was truly a great writter. Back in the '80's, I came across one of his accounts in a dusty library stack. During the 1840's, while he was in one of his many exiles in Brussels, he made a side trip to Waterloo. There, he interviewed anyone who bore witness to the events of 1815. The result, was a rivetting first hand account of what transpired. He surely had a gift for faithfully putting thoughts, visualisations and emotions into paper. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/02/a_fight_with_a_cannon_the_uss_san_francisco_grounding.html#comment-14897 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/02/a_fight_with_a_cannon_the_uss_san_francisco_grounding.html#comment-14897 Wed, 16 Feb 2005 16:22:27 -0600