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I may be ugly, but...

By Dusty (AKA Attila of Argghhh!) on January 31, 2005 | | Comments (25) | TrackBacks (1)

Anybody remember the movie Blazing Saddles? Of course you do. Well, there's a scene where Alex Karras' character Mongo ("...just pawn in Great Game of Life...") doesn't like the way a horse is looking at him and decks the animal with one punch. Mongo is, of course, a fraction of the the horse's size and weight, but nevertheless slowly and relentlessly plods up to him, cocks his fist and BAM!...horsie go to sleep.

When I saw that again after several years in the Hog, I thought, "What a superb analogy. 'I may not be the prettiest thing you've ever seen on the battlefield, and it might take me awhile to get to the fight, but don't even THINK about letting me connect if we ever go toe to toe.'"

So John sends me this clip from Montieth, one of our more frequent and always-interesting reader/commentors. (Note: PLEASE Right Click and Save As to keep the bandwidth use under control)

OK...a couple of things. Yes, it's impressive but here's a couple of things to consider when you watch...

- The HEI round has about as much explosive content as the soldier's hand grenade, except that it's going about 3200 feet per second and 70 of them exit the barrels in your general direction every second (after the first second of firing and the the gun has reached it's full rotation speed).
- "General direction" is, actually, a misleading term. The gun has a mil dispersion of 5. In English, that means that at one thousand feet 80% of the bullets remain inside a 5-foot circle. As range increases, that circle widens in an essentially linear way--at 2K, 10 feet; 3K 15 feet; 5K; 25 feet. Sound like a lot? Imagine the assault platoon you're facing being able to throw, simultaneously, 70 hand grenades at you from a mile away and getting them all to land in the space of your mess tent...and when they hit they're somewhere north of supersonic.
- The GE/Philco-Ford cannon they came out of has, roughly, 6 billion moving parts. OK, maybe not 6 billion, but more than, say, your car's engine. So what. Wellllll...when I pull the trigger, the gun goes from a standing start to 3900 RPM in just under 1 second and fires from the barrel directly in line with the jet's fuselage centerline. When I release said trigger, the gun spins down to zero, reverses, counts the empty shells in the seven-barrel breech assembly until it senses a live round, and stops when the breech is reset with the next live round is in the firing barrel...in 1.5 seconds. Next time you go for a drive, stop in the driveway and rev her up to 3900 RPM. See if you can do it in a second...then shut it down and see how long it takes to stop (much less reverse the crankshaft rotation)...it'll probably take longer than a second-and-a-half. OK, I don't expect you to try to give your car engine whiplash (our visitors usually aren't DemocraticUnderground types), but you get my drift.
- Did I mention the thrust rearward the gun generates? 18,000lbs. With both engines producing about the same amount of thrust (which is why it takes us so long to get to the fight), well, thank God for physics...it keeps us airborne.
- The gun is loaded with special equipment that attaches to the front underside of the forward fuselage...we call it the dragon...and belts/links are not used. The bullets are fed into the system and carried along a conveyor that goes into the back of the ammo drum. The rounds are held by a groove in their cartridge bases on a helix assembly the corkscrews through the drum; the tips of the bullets are pointed at the center of the drum and when they reach the front of the drum are picked up and fed into the breech assembly as individual rounds. They travel through the firing sequence, are pulled from the barrel and placed back on the conveyor to travel back to the rear of the ammo drum and back into the helix. Elegant, closed-loop, beltless system.
- Of course, when the thing breaks it's freakin' spectacular. No, it doesn't explode, but the sudden stop of a mechanical jam can really screw up all that metal. Fortunately, most failures are in the electronic control system. When the jet senses the unload/recock process didn't work right (took too long(!), post-firing bullet count was off, etc.) you'll get a "Gun Unsafe" light in the cockpit. You play it safe and bring it back IAW emergency procedures but usually it turns out to be a bad chip or whatever. In the 20+ years I flew the jet, I can't remember a serious mechanical failure...and I think I would.

...and one last thing...
The GAU-8/A is NOT a Vulcan...it is the Avenger. To equate the two would be like equating a 9mm with a .44 magnum.

So there you have it...my 2 cents. Thanks again to Monteith and now John will get off my a$$...or not.

Instapilot

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the A-10 from Delftsman on January 31, 2005 3:52 PM

Dusty has an interesting post over at Castle AAARRGGH on one of my favorite military aircraft, the A-10 "warthog. He writes it from personal experience with the ugly beauty. It was a joy to read about the Warthog from... Read More

25 Comments

By Sgt. B. on January 31, 2005 2:53 PM
*DROOL* Cripes, I'm gonna drown... Me being a machinegunner and all... Niiiice...
 
By cw4billt on January 31, 2005 3:11 PM
Sarge B. - After you've had one of these things unload 20 feet over your head, even though you know it's pointed 'way downrange, a certain bodily fluid other than *DROOL* tries to get your immediate attention. I used ta HATE it when they played "Bounce The Loach"...
 
By Joatmoaf on January 31, 2005 3:57 PM
The Vulcan ain`t no slouch either. It has a maximum rate of fire of 6000 rounds per minute. They`re normally set at 2000 - 2800 rpm depending on the aircraft to extend trigger life. 1200 rounds at 6000 rounds per minute is only 12 seconds. Not much in a dogfight but plenty if you`re going for a hard target. On the Saratoga we used to save our 5 gal. paint buckets specifically for target practice. After a launch someone would throw a few over from the fantail and aircraft would shoot them. The spreading paint is easy to spot from the air and even easier if they hit the target.
 
By John of Argghhh! on January 31, 2005 4:11 PM
Consider yer a$$ unloaded until the next ATO, flyboy. Just try not to keep scratching missions for that *crew rest* excuse, eh?
 
By Instapilot on January 31, 2005 6:00 PM
20mm is cool but it's just not in the same league. That's not its fault...the slugs the Avenger slings are an order of magnitude heavier...which accouints for the slower rate of fire of the Gau-8 (inertia and all that) but the substantially longer energy conservation and range. 20mm is great for an air-to-air target but it just doesn't have the "smash" a 30mm gives for armor penetration. One thing I didn't mention was the air-to-air firing solution Hogs have now had for a number a years, thanks to the low-altitude terrain avoidance displays and software. Think about a bullet designed to K- or M-kill a tank hitting an airplane. This last part is a long story...I know this doesn't sound right, seeing as how we're talking about something for terrain avoidance. Just trust me. Anyway, we can now shoot you in the face, on the beam and going away. Granted, it ain't something I'll have a lots of chances to do, especially if fighting a fighter, put all I need is one.
 
By cw4billt on January 31, 2005 8:29 PM
For making tanks go away, I still like a nice ATGM...crank in hi-mag and you get to see their faces when they finally see it (if they're quick). For air-to-air, we came up with something that may (or may not) have worked: 1. Bad guy sees Cobra, turns inbound. 2. Cobra sees bad guy, orients on same, raises nose and punches off a pair of Mk 66s. 3. Bad guy has dilemma--he sees the launch, but has no idea if they're missiles or rockets. If he bets missiles, he breaks off and we play more games; if he bets rockets, he presses the attack and winds up flying through the flechette mulcher... One F-16 guy I know says it would work, another just called me a "sick, sick [compound vulgarity deleted by increasingly nervous NetNanny]" and walked away muttering... Any thoughts from the starch-wingers?
 
By SangerM on January 31, 2005 9:31 PM
And as a former Redeye guy, I say screw 'em all. I only need one from behind the tree. Well, except at an A-10, dang-it, which has TWO engines, and they're on the outside, and all, so hitting one just pisses 'em off... Etc. But the hardest thing to get a tone on was the OH-58 when it was right overhead, the top mounted exhausts never registered on the heat seeker. I understand the stinger took care of that and could even do head on shots. Fast movers? No problem. I could do one of them and they'd never see it coming. P.S. I used to be a TADIL tester. We'd talk through some problems and stuff at joint meetings, and most time the meetings were congenial. After the AF shot down the two Blackhawks over Northern Iraq (and before we learned the Army pilots had TURNED THEIR IFF OFF, though the pilots did claim visual ID), the Army guys sat in one meeting and said the Army had just ordered another 4,000 Avenger systems. That's the army AD system that carries stingers and fast bullet launchers, is operated by an E3/E4, and is mounted on the back of a humvee--it's the thing John found disturbing in front of the Washington Monument. Well, The AF AWACS folks didn't see the humor in it, nor the other over-land flyers, but the Navy guys just shrugged and said yeah, so what. If one of those ever gets close enough to hurt the Navy, AEGIS would take it out too. The less-than-congenial conversation went downhill from there. Talk about a tough meeting. . . -SangerM
 
By SangerM on January 31, 2005 9:35 PM
One other useless comment: according to urban legend, Alex Karras actually broke that horse's jaw 'cause it turned into the swing. I've never gone to triple check that, but it sounded cool...
 
By Jutthisguy on January 31, 2005 9:52 PM
18,000 lbs. of backtthrust, huh? I immediately had an evil thought about backing into a parking place...
 
By cw4billt on January 31, 2005 10:59 PM
SangerM - One of the Dirty Little Secrets to come out of the Black Hawk shootdown was that, contrary to the official party line from the Pentagon, the F-15 guys not only descended below their hard floor to attack the UH-60s, the wingman actually engaged in a low-level, multiple-pass tail chase on the bird he shot down and almost flew into the bottom of a cliff while doing it. An SF-type with a camcorder caught the action. I--and fifty other very somber helicopter pilots--watched it on our Safety Standdown the following year. A clear case of multiple screwups, compounded by a double-case of buck fever--ain't nothin' about a Black Hawk with extended-range tanks that remotely resembles an Mi-25. Rumors about the Stinger being an all-aspect critter are 100% true. We played against Stinger teams at A.P. Hill in 98-99 and in spite of active IR jammer, CARC paint and BH exhaust suppressor, they acquired our Cobras whenever they got line-of-sight. If we were quick, we could break the lock by nipping behind a treeline before they could "shoot"--but if we saw them first... Parr-teee!
 
By SangerM on February 1, 2005 1:16 AM
BillT, Interesting re: that BH thing. 1) I heard pieces of it where I was, but never all the details, nor the end-result. What we were told was that the pilots never got close enough to really see, though they claimed visual ID. We were also told that an AWACS guy vectored them in, and gave the go-ahead to shoot. We were also told the pilots of the BHs had turned off IFF (why? Story was, maybe 'cause the folks on board didn't want to be followed/ID'd). Never did get more than that 2) In Mar/Apr 1994, I was in El Paso, supporting the annual Air Defense Exercise. I had just turned north onto the highway that goes out to White Sands where my duty for the day was, when I saw what looked like an MI-24 flying west-east about 6-10 klicks ahead, maybe 500 Ft AGL. It was a bright day, but the helicopter was mostly in silhouette for the 5-10 seconds I could see it. I looked real hard and then, because I knew there couldn't be a HIND flying around over Ft. Bliss, I made the mental switch to thinking maybe it was possible a Blackhawk could look like a HIND--not real likely, but ok, anything's possible. Strange as hell, but then I'd never seen a real HIND, just pictures, movies, etc. So, explained to my general satisfaction, with a note to be less harsh on AF guys at next TADIL meeting. Of course, about 30 minutes after I got to White Sands, an officer coworker showed up (an ADA guy), and he says, "Hey!! Did you see that HIND down there over Ft. Bliss? It flew right over the gas station I was at! Wow!!" I told him what I saw and suspected, and he said it was one we'd got from an ally, and was being used in the exercise to give the radar and gun folks some actual imagery... Ah HA! I says! So it was an MI-24, and THEREFORE, it was real unlikely those guys to have seen a HIND when looking at Blackhawks because they look NOTHING alike. I made sure I told the AWACS guys that when I got back to the office. -SangerM
 
By AFSister on February 1, 2005 7:51 AM
John, Next time, maybe you could include pictures of the hottie firing said weapon. Now THAT would be something to look at! I know, I know.....gurls
 
By cw4billt on February 1, 2005 8:06 AM
SangerM - The pilots didn't "turn off" their IFF (Mode 4). What happened black-box-wise was that they'd been assigned squawks for both Mode 3/A ("Who I Am and Where I'm Going") and Mode 4 ("I'm Friendly") for operating on the Turkish side of the border. AWACS was supposed to issue them new squawks for operating over the Kurds, but never did. AWACS tracked them, knew where they were, but did NOT vector the F-15s to their location, the F-15s spotted them on radar. When they interrogated Mode 4, they didn't get the proper response and smelled blood. They told AWACS they had Hinds in sight, the location matched that of the Hawks, but AWACS never told the Eagle drivers to double-check their visual ID and never issued a heads-up to the Hawk pilots or had them confirm their location. You may also have been told that the Hawk drivers never knew what hit them--another lie. The second Hawk to be attacked dodged the first missile by flying over a rock outcrop and then diving behind it, according to the SF guy who filmed it with the camcorder. The gun camera footage also shows the first Hawk pouring on the coals in an effort to get behind some rocks, but he never made it. Just an all-around effing mess.
 
By cw4billt on February 1, 2005 8:16 AM
[continued] SangerM - The Hind was a present from Israel, I'm told (See? Nice folks share). The guy you probably saw flying it now has a more mundane job, flying C-12s. He told me the thing flies like a champ and is "built like a German building" but has crapola avionics and all push-the-flight-envelope bets are off at altitudes above 8,000 feet.
 
By AFSister on February 1, 2005 11:45 AM
Bill & Sanger- Great comments on the BH incident. Thanks-
 
By Mudpuppy on February 1, 2005 2:23 PM
I have always had this fantacy of a GAU-8A, 6 or 8 107mm recoiliess, a M88 hull, AGT1500 powerplant, Bushmaster cannon and a few other goodies.
 
By Boquisucio on February 1, 2005 2:43 PM
Great Discussion y'all, Its been said that a dog's bark is louder than its bite, but let me tell you, 'bout two years ago, I saw both the GAU-8 & GAU-19 bark at Ethan Allen, VT. They not only filled the valley with their roar, but tore-up the target "cave" like no one's business. Pity that Ethan Allen is a clean range, only TP's were spit down range. Boquisucio
 
By cw4billt on February 1, 2005 3:34 PM
Boquisucio - You're lucky--if they'd been live, your ears would still be mad at your feet for bringing them there... =]
 
By Sgt. B. on February 1, 2005 3:46 PM
Actually (green/green incidents aside), if one of them Warthawgs was ten feet above my head, I was in contact with the pilot or the FAC, and said 'Hawg and Dash Two were prosecuting a target on my request, I assure you, them boids would give me such a feeling of security that I'd think I was back in me lovin' momma's arms. (Just as long as I could dodge the brass from said 'Hawgs.) A-10... *sigh* Nice boid, purty boid, good boid... Wish WE had some...
 
By cw4billt on February 1, 2005 4:35 PM
You did, sorta-kinda--OV-10s. Those 5" Zuni 'phone poles Were dee-lightful to see When they were aimed at the DShK That was aiming at me...
 
By cw4billt on February 1, 2005 4:41 PM
Sarge B. - We had no problems with the boys in the Hawgs a-tall; in fact, we had a symbiotic relationship called JAAT (Joint Aerial Attack Team). We'd bust up the AA/AAA and the A-10s would pop in while we did the duck and cover deal, then we'd pop up someplace else and cover their egress. Repeat 5 times. If you're real nice to John, he'll let you see the picture I'll e-gram to him in about a half hour...
 
By Boquisucio on February 1, 2005 5:18 PM
Thanx for the Comment cw4billt, When it came time to get close and personal with the GAU's we were order to PELTOR them up. I figure that that was the best way to avoid a grudge match between them ears and feet. Afterall, the feet were all nice and comfy in warm shoes, and them ears were feeling a bit nekked in the stiff November wind. The ones left out behind on the cold, were our eyeballs. Sure, the sight of the TP's biting the sand was great, but some fireworks would have been candy for them. Boquisucio
 
By Boquisucio on February 1, 2005 5:18 PM
Thanx for the Comment cw4billt, When it came time to get close and personal with the GAU's we were order to PELTOR them up. I figure that that was the best way to avoid a grudge match between them ears and feet. Afterall, the feet were all nice and comfy in warm shoes, and them ears were feeling a bit nekked in the stiff November wind. The ones left out behind on the cold, were our eyeballs. Sure, the sight of the TP's biting the sand was great, but some fireworks would have been candy for them. Boquisucio
 
By cw4billt on February 1, 2005 7:09 PM
Boquisucio - Agreed. Sparks and pops are the scoop of ice cream next to the cake--not entirely necessary, but s-o-o-o much more rewarding...
 
By Barb on February 4, 2005 10:10 AM
Dusty - just a little late to the comment part ! Just wanted to say Thanks - that video provided much pleasure for self and friends :-) Bill and Sangor - the discussion of the BH incident was very illuminating, thanks. Barb
 
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