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For those of you who have been suggesting...

...that we just send the M113s over to Iraq and quit worrying about up-armoring the HMMWVs... guess what?

We are.*

Perhaps more important, perhaps George Soros or Michael Moore could give this guy a hand. Someone should. Stanislav Petrov, I salute you, sir. Doing your true duty to your nation, not the reflexive one. I, too, was sitting in alert sites babysitting my battalion nukes during those dark days of 1983, when the NRAS (Nuclear Release Authentication System) messages weren't just training messages.

For those of you dropping in from Mudville - you might also be interested in this follow-up.

*If you can't get into the link - go to the extended post.

Miami Herald
January 4, 2005

U.S. Army Adding Armor To 'War Horse' Troop Carriers

To answer complaints about inadequately armored vehicles, the Army confirmed that it will armor two types of veteran war horse carriers and send them to Iraq.

By Joseph L. Galloway

WASHINGTON - The Army, beset with complaints that its troops are going into combat in inadequately armored Humvees, will send an older and less used class of armored personnel carriers to Iraq after spending $84 million to add armor to them.

These vehicles, both veteran war horses, are the M-113/A3 armored personnel carrier and the M-577 command post carrier. Both will be tougher and safer than newly armored Humvees.

Army officials who pushed hard over the past two years for getting the M-113 into duty in Iraq said it was more useful, cheaper and easier to transport than the Army's new wheeled Stryker armored vehicle, also in use in Iraq.

The Army and Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld found themselves at the center of a firestorm last month over the pace of adding armor to the Humvee, a small transport vehicle that's been pressed into service in Iraq as a combat vehicle. Critics have charged that even with armor the Humvee is too easily destroyed by rocket-propelled grenades and improvised explosive devices.

An Army representative, who requested anonymity, said Monday that $84 million was being spent to add armor to 734 M-113/A3s and M-577s.

For the M-113s, that includes hardened steel side armor, a ''slat armor'' cage that bolts to the side armor and protects against rocket-propelled grenades, anti-mine armor on the bottom and a new transparent, bulletproof gun shield on the top that improves gunners' vision.

SLAT ARMOR

The M-577, nicknamed the ''high-top shoe'' for its tall, ungainly silhouette, will get only slat armor and anti-mine armor. Its high sides can't take the steel armor without making the vehicle unstable and even more liable to roll over.

The slat-type armor essentially is a metal cage designed to detonate RPGs before they breach the steel armor and the light aluminum wall. Similar slat armor has been added to the Stryker vehicle.

The armor kits will be produced in the United States, the Army representative said, and installed in Kuwait.

The representative said the M-113 upgrade was requested by Lt. Gen. Thomas Metz, the ground commander in Iraq, and approved by Gen. George Casey, the commander of multinational forces in Iraq.

The M-113 typically carries a driver, a commander and 11 infantry soldiers. It can be fitted with a .50-caliber machine gun or a MK-19 40mm grenade launcher.

NEWER, IMPROVED

The M-113/A3 version, introduced in 1987, has a bigger turbo-charged diesel engine, an improved transmission, steering and braking package, and inside liners to suppress spall, the superheated molten metal produced by RPG and tank-round hits. It has a range of 300 miles and a road speed of more than 40 mph. It also is amphibious.

More than 80,000 M-113s in 28 configurations have been manufactured since 1960.

At 13 tons, the M-113 is much easier to transport than the behemoth M1A2 Abrams tank or Bradley Fighting Vehicle.

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John, at Argghhh! has some updates on sending M-113/A3 armored personnel carrier and the M-577 command post carrier. Both will be tougher and safer than newly armored Humvees.... Read More

John, at Argghhh! has some updates on sending M-113/A3 armored personnel carrier and the M-577 command post carrier. Both will be tougher and safer than newly armored Humvees.... Read More

MILBLOG'S HOME from Mudville Gazette on January 19, 2005 3:11 AM

THE POST EXCHANGE: I've asked my fellow MilBloggers to submit "notable posts" they've written in the recent past for inclusion here, with a quick summary in their own words. I've taken the liberty of linking to some of their... Read More

MILBLOG'S HOME from Mudville Gazette on January 25, 2005 9:25 AM

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MILBLOG'S HOME from Mudville Gazette on January 26, 2005 6:58 AM

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MILBLOG'S HOME from Mudville Gazette on January 26, 2005 7:07 AM

THE POST EXCHANGE: I've asked my fellow MilBloggers to submit "notable posts" they've written in the recent past for inclusion here, with a quick summary in their own words. I've taken the liberty of linking to some of their... Read More

MILBLOG'S HOME from Mudville Gazette on January 26, 2005 7:12 AM

THE POST EXCHANGE: I've asked my fellow MilBloggers to submit "notable posts" they've written in the recent past for inclusion here, with a quick summary in their own words. I've taken the liberty of linking to some of their... Read More

MILBLOG'S HOME from Mudville Gazette on January 26, 2005 10:11 AM

THE POST EXCHANGE: I've asked my fellow MilBloggers to submit "notable posts" they've written in the recent past for inclusion here, with a quick summary in their own words. I've taken the liberty of linking to some of their... Read More

MILBLOG'S HOME from Mudville Gazette on February 1, 2005 5:05 PM

THE POST EXCHANGE: I've asked my fellow MilBloggers to submit "notable posts" they've written in the recent past for inclusion here, with a quick summary in their own words. I've taken the liberty of linking to some of their... Read More

MILBLOG'S HOME from Mudville Gazette on February 1, 2005 5:10 PM

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12 Comments

From what I'd read on some other milblogs, the guys who usually ride in these things would prefer something faster to something armored, and something that offers them more visibility. An armored up anything doesn't quite fit the bill, and an M-113 with extra armor would be even slower and offer even less visibility. Also, they're less likely to be able to maneuver through some of Iraqs smallers streets. Just a regular guy here, non-military, looking for clarification here.
 
Being a former submariner, I am on the same urban combat level of knowledge as Sean. But in a city, you can only go so fast, and a lot of what I have been reading is go slow, identify target, pin down target, and smash target like bug. I doubt M-113s will be used much as convoy protection, that is where the up-armored humvees would be used. M-113s are also pretty tiny compared to an M1 or even a Bradley, so can get into small alleys and still maneuver. A M113 is tracked, and can climb piles of crap better than a 4x4 Humvee ( although this would expose the thin belly).
 
I should note that I'm not the one who was crying for the return of the M113... but. There are several add-on packages to the M113 that allow the passengers to stick their heads out the hatch behind armor. Heck, I'll post a picture later of an Israeli version that does just that. The M113 can move pretty fast, too - and can bull it's way past obstacles a HMMWV couldn't, and they're really pretty maneuverable in tight spaces. They can turn around in their length via pivot-steering, which a HMMWV can't. They have their pluses and their minuses.
 
A standard M113A3 is a good bit smaller than a Brad-but when you add the slat armor on, it's going to be just as wide, maybe a bit wider. And as stated, the added armor will make them slower-and the whole point of the M113 -A3 upgrade, at least the bigger engine, was to make them as fast as the Brads and M1s. AFAIC, the Stryker is pretty much the ultimate convoy escort vehicle. It's got decent armor, thermal sights for the weapon system, and wheels. Roads are hard on tracks, and vice versa. Doing escort duty wears tracks out quick. Now, the M113A3 may or may not be better than the armored Humvees for urban patrolling. They're bigger, heavier, much louder, and probably slower. OTOH, they're better armored, more mobile in seriously bad terrain, and can carry more troops.
 
Not to mention that doing it will take away that particular bitch from people who have seen the M113's as THE ANSWER (you know who you are). The troops will find a way to get the most out of them - far better than any armchair general is going to, because they have the best motivations for doing so.
 
Well, I just hope that the guys on the ground get what they want, whether it's an unarmored, doorless, turbo-charged HMMWV or a super armored M113.
 
Looks like you guys have pretty much called the best use for the M-113, as far as urban vs. open terrain convoy ops goes. And it'd be real nice to have a bunch of ACAV versions as escort vehicles--after they mod the gun pintles to increase elevation capability. When you're three feet from a building and being shot at from its upper stories (or roof), it's comforting to be able to return the favor--with an M2. Biggest negative to the -113 is its vulnerability to large mines or IEDs (we called them "booby traps" back then) detonated beneath it--the floor had a dismaying tendency to break loose and compress against the roof, to the extreme detriment of passenger survivability. As a result, the troopies preferred to ride on top and take their chances with small arms fire and RPGs; "If you're inside and the Ape hits a mine, everybody dies, but if you're outside and they bust caps on ya, they gotta hit you," as one of my mud-buds used to say. Hope some of that $84-mil is earmarked for strenghtening the belly of the beast, otherwise the rationale for upgrading the side armor kinda goes away...
 
Generally speaking: a. When moving through a hostile area, one remembers the balance between speed and armour; b. When the bandits open fire, the need for speed becomes apparent; c. When the hostile fire closes in, one is again reminded of the functionality of more armour; d. The cycle continues ... Cheers JMH
 
Hey, Is this what you guys are talking about? I sure hope that they are armored really good, because they burn like a son of a bi**h, when they are hit. I don't know about the floor but I do know that no one would ride inside them. Plus, like it was said, they seem to be underpowered. But, if we already got a bunch of them and they can be improved at depot or in the field. I guess we can give them a try. This is my post Papa Ray West Texas USA
 
A couple of things... First - the M113 armor upgrade is the same type of upgrade the Stryker vehicle needed before it went into the theater. If the critics are against the Strkyer for needing the armor, shouldn't they be against the M113? The M113 has a known bad record against IEDs and mines - Strykers have done well against them. Second - one of those critics was Gen Shalikashvili, who was on the board of directors for Unified Defense...the builders of the M113. Third - The Miami Herald mucks up their article by making the comment about the "behemoth" M1A2 and M2A3 combat systems. The tank is dead...until you need a tank. Both the M113 and the Stryker would have been demolished by some of the firefights that the tanks and Brads have been in and done well in. They are mixing apples and oranges. Lastly - the Stryker is much more mobile than the M113 operationally (not just by airlift, but by road, too!), is much easier on the road network, and much easier to maintain. As a former tanker, I know what it takes to maintain tanks and what they do to the road net. Styrkers provide a capability we've needed for the last 15 years. M113's won't do (well) what we need Strykers for.
 
A couple of things... First - the M113 armor upgrade is the same type of upgrade the Stryker vehicle needed before it went into the theater. If the critics are against the Strkyer for needing the armor, shouldn't they be against the M113? The M113 has a known bad record against IEDs and mines - Strykers have done well against them. Second - one of those critics was Gen Shalikashvili, who was on the board of directors for Unified Defense...the builders of the M113. Third - The Miami Herald mucks up their article by making the comment about the "behemoth" M1A2 and M2A3 combat systems. The tank is dead...until you need a tank. Both the M113 and the Stryker would have been demolished by some of the firefights that the tanks and Brads have been in and done well in. They are mixing apples and oranges. Lastly - the Stryker is much more mobile than the M113 operationally (not just by airlift, but by road, too!), is much easier on the road network, and much easier to maintain. As a former tanker, I know what it takes to maintain tanks and what they do to the road net. Styrkers provide a capability we've needed for the last 15 years. M113's won't do (well) what we need Strykers for.
 
I agree with you as far as it goes... and journalists mayn times go 'against the flow' (like Tanks bad) - but isn't the issue really M113 (available now) vice HMMWV, rather than M113 vice Stryker? Regardless - this has been a fun thread!
 
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