We're the Military and Airpower Guys of Jonah Goldberg of National Review Online + a stray we found wandering around looking lost. All original material JHD, BHD, JR, WT, and KA 2003-2010 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/01/fireflys_nighthawks_cobras_oh_my.html Sat, 24 Mar 2012 16:04:35 Z Movable Type 4.12 en Copyright 2012 http://www.rssboard.org/rss-specification Okay, as promised, here's Bill the Rotorhead's technical discussion of the Nighthawk and Firefly aircraft - 'specially useful to any modelers out there. Have no idea of what I'm talking about? Well, either start here, at this post of a Nighthawk mission - or read this then go to that post! Better put on another pot of coffee and have Beth crank out some brownies--this is gonna be a l-o-n-g one, cuz the pics need a suitable intro. Gratuitous disclaimer fer-real: This will send some of the Active types into catatonia, but nothing with regards to Nighthawk and Firefly Hueys... http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/01/fireflys_nighthawks_cobras_oh_my.html http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/01/fireflys_nighthawks_cobras_oh_my.html Thu, 27 Jan 2005 05:55:19 -0600 Bill, At least the Air Force doesn't give each other nicknames like "Nancy Boy"... Sanger- That's EXACTLY what I told him. Easy way to either make a friend or a foe, you know? Mythilt- Cool! I love Wright Patt- I was born there a few years ago. Those Satcom planes are so cool. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/01/fireflys_nighthawks_cobras_oh_my.html#comment-12850 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/01/fireflys_nighthawks_cobras_oh_my.html#comment-12850 Fri, 28 Jan 2005 11:35:07 -0600 AFSister, your brother works the flight line at Wright-Patt? Cool. My mother is in charge of a 135 there. The Satcom plane (ACATS). http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/01/fireflys_nighthawks_cobras_oh_my.html#comment-12817 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/01/fireflys_nighthawks_cobras_oh_my.html#comment-12817 Fri, 28 Jan 2005 08:31:51 -0600 AFSister: Re: your brother. I learned like he did not to say the wrong things to strangers in a new place. I'll bet he was ever thankful for that, huh? -SangerM http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/01/fireflys_nighthawks_cobras_oh_my.html#comment-12788 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/01/fireflys_nighthawks_cobras_oh_my.html#comment-12788 Thu, 27 Jan 2005 22:02:07 -0600 I wish I could tell you the name of my new boss (where I'm headed next month). It could be about the most perfect AF name ever. And yeah, while I don't know any Biffs or Bucks, these folks do like their nicknames. Whenever we do nameplates or nametags for the DVs, we ALWAYS have to ask the nickname, and often THAT's what goes biggest on the nametag, e.g., Sanger "BOHICA" MaGee. In fact, the AF guys are always trying to change my name to something shorter, or maybe more insulting (hard to imagine why though). I have to ask them to keep it the way they were introduced. -Sanger "Dain Brammaged" MaGee http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/01/fireflys_nighthawks_cobras_oh_my.html#comment-12787 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/01/fireflys_nighthawks_cobras_oh_my.html#comment-12787 Thu, 27 Jan 2005 21:45:52 -0600 SangerM & AFSis - I've always been curious about something: did'ja ever notice that guys in the Air Force always have names like Biff, Rock, Troy and Todd and guys in the Army have names like Mike, Ed, Ernie and Jack? Back in the early eighties, we were reconfigured and added a bunch of Cav and TC guys to the morning report; out of thirty pilots, there were ten Bobs, eight Toms and five Bills. Every so often, us Bills would swap nametags, just to compound the confusion. Bills are puckish that way, though you'd find it difficult to believe... http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/01/fireflys_nighthawks_cobras_oh_my.html#comment-12786 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/01/fireflys_nighthawks_cobras_oh_my.html#comment-12786 Thu, 27 Jan 2005 21:10:42 -0600 Sanger, You'll appreciate this little story about my brother. His first night at Wright Patt he went over the the club on base to toss back a few cold ones. He struck up a conversation with another guy at the bar about cigars. Just shootin' shit, being guys. They eventually get around to the "what's yer mo?" stuff, so my brother says "C130 Crew Chief- and you?" "Well, son, that's pretty interesting! When you report in tomorrow and your boss introduces you to the brass, you can say 'Sir, I already know this fine gentleman.'" Seems he had been talking to the highest ranking officer in the Reserves, and he had noooo idea! Not just Wright Patt either, the the ENTIRE Air Force! I told him it was a good thing he wasn't bitching or blasted! Could you imagine? The guy gave him his card (can't remember his name- sorry) and told him that if he ever had a problem with the locals to give him a call. Pretty damn cool! http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/01/fireflys_nighthawks_cobras_oh_my.html#comment-12784 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/01/fireflys_nighthawks_cobras_oh_my.html#comment-12784 Thu, 27 Jan 2005 20:50:03 -0600 I transfered to the AF from the Army about 3 yrs ago. The most striking differences are three: 1) Everyone loves wearing those one-piece flight suits (even the space guys) and the fake-looking brown leather bomber jackets 'cause it lets them lord it over the ground Oh's. EVEN if they haven't been in an aircraft in 10 years! In the AF, once a flight suit, always a flight suit, no matter the actual duty. 2) Nobody has a rank or last name. Day one I was taken around the new job site and intro'd to everyone. All the Officers & Senior NCO's introduced themselves as Bob or George or Leo, etc. and if their nametags weren't visable I didn't learn their last names until later. The degree of informality is odd at first, to be sure. Even now, I can be in a room full of folks and I'll call some by first name, others by rank/last name (Especially the Marine and Seal Oh's. The Army guys are either/or depending on our relationship. 3) They keep spirits in the lounge fridge and they don't have a problem breaking that stuff out at the drop of a hat. Beer and wine around. That too went the way of ways in the Army and it was odd to be doing work with some guy having a brew at my desk. Go AFth. -SangerM http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/01/fireflys_nighthawks_cobras_oh_my.html#comment-12783 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/01/fireflys_nighthawks_cobras_oh_my.html#comment-12783 Thu, 27 Jan 2005 20:21:40 -0600 hurt doing that stuff... SangerM - 'Bout 10 years back, I was going to visit an Air Guard bud (KC-135s) at McGuire and had to pass the Main Terminal. Got my one-piece flight suit on (dunno why, but that 27" zipper in the front seems to fascinate the fair sex) with the Master-Blaster wings and patrol cap with the dubb-4 bar and poof from the side door five feet in front of me pops a brand-new butterbar with a female CAP cadet in tow. Knowing that USAF O-1s are pretty much universally regarded as background noise, I thought I'd give him a thrill, so I popped a sa-LUTE and a cheery, "Mornin,'Ell-Tee." Whereupon he continued to chat up the munchkin, and as the two of them sauntered by, she returned my salute. I think that incident was the beginning of my habit of initiating all radio traffic addressed to USAF assets with a cheery, "Yoo-Hoo-Hoo, Boyth in Blue"... ]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/01/fireflys_nighthawks_cobras_oh_my.html#comment-12781 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/01/fireflys_nighthawks_cobras_oh_my.html#comment-12781 Thu, 27 Jan 2005 19:58:15 -0600 Didn't say I didn't like it, just said I was scared. Really, really scared, in fact. I had to be "coerced" by the 75th Inf Ranger Dudes teaching us to do it. The 52' tower w/ a bolted on helicopter skid was a breeze, the 120' cliff felt 200 times higher. I still don't know why I didn't pee my pants, especially after I burnt a hole in my guide hand glove (doing it wrong), let go, and fell about 45' before the belay guy stopped me about 5' from the ground (he was laying on the ground beneath me) After the first time it was a lot easier. . . Hmmm, seems I've heard that elsewhere before . . -SangerM http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/01/fireflys_nighthawks_cobras_oh_my.html#comment-12776 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/01/fireflys_nighthawks_cobras_oh_my.html#comment-12776 Thu, 27 Jan 2005 18:38:43 -0600 Sanger, that would be really cool!!!! I can't believe that you don't like rappeling, but love hanging out of a helo, flying like a wild banshee just above the trees! CRAZY I love the PX story! I could see the whole thing going down in my head, right down to him patting you on the shoulder, walking away shaking his head and saying "FNG'S!" hahaha http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/01/fireflys_nighthawks_cobras_oh_my.html#comment-12774 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/01/fireflys_nighthawks_cobras_oh_my.html#comment-12774 Thu, 27 Jan 2005 18:22:24 -0600 John: Yeah, about 3 days after those pics arrived to EVERYONE we were bulk-emailed to stop looking, stop sending, and stop discussing. A "Part of the official investigation" issue. But you know how it is with a can of worms. AF Sister: I'll put some stuff on a web site or do a CD and send it. More to follow. Also, even though I am really scared of unsupported heights (as like during a knee-knocking, voice-changing, 120' cliff rappel), I LOVE being tied to a helicopter and flying along as fast as they can go as close to the ground as they can get while hanging as far outside the thing as I can get. I have a series of pics I took while hanging out of the crew window on a blackhawk as it flew through some valleys in Germany. THAT was a kick in the butt. And of course, almost all the OH-58s had the front doors off when I was at Hood. I suppose it was no different for me than driving my M151 or my CJ-5 on the autobahn with no doors. Even going slow, it felt fast. Hell, a tank at 35mph feels fast if your sitting up front and doing the steering. . . I think it's the fast thing. BillT: Didn't know that about the armor, as I said. Not surprising though. I love helicopters, but I've never been a student of rotary ships. The 1st Cav was still Tri-Cap when I got there, but I was in the Armored Bde (1/7 Cav-tank), not the Air Assault or Air Attack Bde. We only got to wear black berets and leather belts, everyone else got to wear those cool-a$$ Stetsons or powder blue berets (2/7 was leg infantry, blues, at that time) Hey!! That just reminded me of one you'll like Bill. '74. I was an E3, new to Ft Hood by about 3 days. Been Army long enough to complete Basic/AIT, etc. At the main PX on Hood, I was walking along and up comes this older guy wearing all sorts of stuff I had never seen. Bottom to top: Issue boots, some odd-color brownish OD weird material two piece uniform with a wide black leather belt. The pocket tape did say US Army, but that was all I recognized. He had on some odd striped bar collar insignia, and he was wearing big dark shades and an off-white Stetson with some odd insignia centered on the front. I looked, decided he was nothing to be concerned with and sauntered on by. . . "HEY, PRIVATE!, don't you know how to SALUTE!?" "Huh? Me?" "Yes, YOU! You being funny or what?? I looked him over again, but was still clueless, so I asked him in what I thought was a polite, respectful voice "Um, what are you?" You ever seen those cartoons where a character goes non-linear, where his eyes pop out five levels, steam comes out his ears, and THEN he erupts? Well this guy did that right there. "WHAT THE -bleep-bleep-bleep-bleep (and lots and lots of that) DO YOU MEAN WHAT AM I, YOU (lots more of the above) LITTLE (and more), and so on. I quailed, and I guess I must have looked close to tears because he stopped (after what felt like 2 hours of that) and asked me, "Do you not know what rank I am?" "No, um, Sir? I don't even know WHAT service you're in, except it says US Army. He stood there looking at me, trying to see if I was lying, then he explained he was a CW3 helicopter pilot assigned to the MP Bn there on Hood. That he was not a commissioned officer (by God), but that he did deserve a salute. I snapped one so fast and hard, I nearly knocked myself out. He laughed, returned the salute, patted my shoulder, said he was sorry for chewing my butt so hard, and walked off laughing some more. His uniform was the old two piece flight suit (like what BillT has on in the recent photo contest), he was cav, thus the leather belt; and he was an MP Pilot (probably a Cobra guy) which is why he had the white Stetson instead of the black one. The insignia was crossed pistols (MPs). I had never seen any of that stuff before then. I came away from that experience having learned several things. 1) I needed to learn all the Army ranks by sight, quickly. 2) I should never screw with warrant officers 'cause they are mean. 3) I clearly had a lot to learn about our common language, and the creative ways some words could be used. 4) When in doubt, I should salute it. This would not be good if IT were an NCO, but those ranks I had down pretty cold. 5) Stay under the walkway covering, so you don't have to salute it, whatever it is. (That last did NOT work with General Brooks in the 25th Inf, but mostly it did). And all that just going to the PX. :-) Cool huh? -SangerM http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/01/fireflys_nighthawks_cobras_oh_my.html#comment-12772 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/01/fireflys_nighthawks_cobras_oh_my.html#comment-12772 Thu, 27 Jan 2005 17:39:12 -0600 person to be around. ]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/01/fireflys_nighthawks_cobras_oh_my.html#comment-12769 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/01/fireflys_nighthawks_cobras_oh_my.html#comment-12769 Thu, 27 Jan 2005 16:03:55 -0600 de rigeur in RVN. That doohickey in combination with the chicken plate (thirty-pound plate of ceramic armor inside a kevlar outsert--dynamite for sweating those extra[?] pounds off) is the reason for the odd wound-distribution that confused the docs for so long; we either got hit in the legs, the hands or the head. Flight helmets aren't bulletproof. 'Nuff sed. ]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/01/fireflys_nighthawks_cobras_oh_my.html#comment-12759 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/01/fireflys_nighthawks_cobras_oh_my.html#comment-12759 Thu, 27 Jan 2005 13:04:57 -0600 Ack. They knew about the hole, and didn't mark it? Duh. What a waste of an airplane! I do remember the crash, but don't remember hearing anything about the cause. Thanks for the info! My brother is a AF Reserve Crew Chief on the cargo planes out of Wright Patt. They have C130's, C5's and C17's up there. He was a B52 mech during Desert Storm. I'm a big scrapbooker, and am always looking for cool stuff for him. I bought a really nice album with the AF seal on it and have been trying to make pages for it from his pictures and historical ones. I'd love to see what you have!! Please email me. Thanks Sanger!! It's funny- you guys love flying in helicopters w/o the doors, but that's what scares me the most about them! My Dad too- he hated hanging out of those things. Bad memories for him; good ones for you. Interesting, don't you think? http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/01/fireflys_nighthawks_cobras_oh_my.html#comment-12757 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/01/fireflys_nighthawks_cobras_oh_my.html#comment-12757 Thu, 27 Jan 2005 12:19:48 -0600 Yeah, Boudicca sent me those (as did JMH, later) about 2 days after the accident. I sent it on to Dusty to work with, but he's been in such sucking mud at work and home he didn't have time to do anything with it. Which reminds me - I need to ping him about something. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/01/fireflys_nighthawks_cobras_oh_my.html#comment-12756 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/01/fireflys_nighthawks_cobras_oh_my.html#comment-12756 Thu, 27 Jan 2005 12:01:09 -0600 BillT: THAT is an excellent write up, and most bestest of all, completely new to me--My day is complete already and it's not even noon here! Thank you (I am mean that) and John for posting it! I had no idea we ever mounted minis in Hueys in Vietnam (well, shut my mouf'); also, I do model 1/35 stuff, so these are good for me (I have been working a 1/35 scale QuickFix huey for years--if I ever stop moving long enough to unpack it again, I may finish it; also, I didn't realize they had those pilot seat side-shields mounted back then. For some reason, I always thought those were post-Vietnam doohickeys. Maybe 'cause I didn't spend that much time in Hueys early-on (mostly -58s). As for no doors, I always loved flying with no doors. When I got into QuickFix we had fly with doors closed 'cause of the classification level of paperwork. That sucked, and was part of the reason I got sick so damn often. I couldn't see the horizon without bending over and turning my head, and after the first--and last time--I did that, I stopped trying. BTW, I have pics of the QF birds if you wanna see 'em. AF Sister: If you like C130's, I have lots of pictures of them, mostly official releases, but mostly of ACs and historical stuff. I've sent John some, but if you tell me what you like, I can look here too. BTW, did you ever see the images of that one that crashed in Iraq a short bit ago? Some dimbulb construction crew cut a roughly 25'x25' (yes feet) section out of a runway, and neglected to do post lights or do a NOTAM. The plane came in at night, landed, and promptly drove into a mud pit. The forward momentum carried them across the pit, sheered off the wheels, and basically caused the destruction of the plane (it's hard to imagine that one flying again). No one was killed, but several folks were hurt. AND worse, it seems a 130 had landed there the day before, seen the hole, had alerted the tower, and sent info up the chain. -SangerM http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/01/fireflys_nighthawks_cobras_oh_my.html#comment-12752 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/01/fireflys_nighthawks_cobras_oh_my.html#comment-12752 Thu, 27 Jan 2005 11:35:02 -0600 OH, LOOK! AN ANGEL!! ]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/01/fireflys_nighthawks_cobras_oh_my.html#comment-12751 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/01/fireflys_nighthawks_cobras_oh_my.html#comment-12751 Thu, 27 Jan 2005 11:22:20 -0600 I think you included the Firefly C130 Cluster pic for my benefit. You know I'm going to have to print that and show by brother, Bill. He'll get a kick out of it for sure, seeing his lights on your helo! http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/01/fireflys_nighthawks_cobras_oh_my.html#comment-12748 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/01/fireflys_nighthawks_cobras_oh_my.html#comment-12748 Thu, 27 Jan 2005 09:54:55 -0600 Ref first post: "ingestion"--I meant "ingestion"... http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/01/fireflys_nighthawks_cobras_oh_my.html#comment-12736 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/01/fireflys_nighthawks_cobras_oh_my.html#comment-12736 Thu, 27 Jan 2005 07:42:03 -0600 Ooop--addendum: that thing on the end of the mini in pic 2 is a bullet catcher. Removed before flight, but very useful if the mini got cranky and popped one off during ground ops (they did that sometimes. Just one more thing to jangle your nerves)... http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/01/fireflys_nighthawks_cobras_oh_my.html#comment-12735 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/01/fireflys_nighthawks_cobras_oh_my.html#comment-12735 Thu, 27 Jan 2005 07:39:51 -0600 doors? How br-a-a-ve of you!" Yup, we flew without doors. Better visibility and we could replace the weight of the doors (useless) with weight of ammo (useful). Besides, we were strapped in. I won't tell you about the time I forgot to do so (every pilot I ever knew did this--once). Here's another tidbit--we flew without parachutes, too, because: 1. the armored seats weren't expandable--plunk a pilot wearing a survival vest and a chicken plate in one and there was no room for a parachute; 2. bad things happened so fast, we couldn't get out before impact; 3. we flew so low that a parachute wouldn't have a chance to open even if we could get out; 4. we had a slim chance of surviving a crash and no chance of surviving a trip through the rotor disk (two blades + 229rpm = meat slicer); and 5. a little maneuver called an autorotation, which, if performed properly, saved yer butt in the event of "engine failure due to bullet injestion." Bottom line, you were actually safer going down with the ship (major difference from the naval version). Don' need no steenkeeng pawrah-shoot! ]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/01/fireflys_nighthawks_cobras_oh_my.html#comment-12733 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2005/01/fireflys_nighthawks_cobras_oh_my.html#comment-12733 Thu, 27 Jan 2005 07:21:38 -0600