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  <id>tag:www.thedonovan.com,2008://1/tag:www.thedonovan.com,2004://1.3236-</id>
  <updated>2008-08-03T17:31:58Z</updated>
  <title>Comments for Re: How Fast Can You Fly Backward? Or Why Helicopter Pilots are Superior</title>
  <subtitle>We&apos;re the Military and Airpower Guys of Jonah Goldberg of National Review Online + a stray we found wandering around looking lost.  All original material JHD, BHD, JR, WT,  and KA 2003-2007</subtitle>
  <generator uri="http://www.sixapart.com/movabletype/">Movable Type 4.12</generator>

  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.thedonovan.com,2004://1.3236</id>
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    <link rel="service.edit" type="application/atom+xml" href="http://www.thedonovan.com/cgi-bin/mt41/mt-atom.cgi/weblog/blog_id=1/entry_id=3236" title="Re: How Fast Can You Fly Backward? Or Why Helicopter Pilots are Superior" />
    <published>2004-12-06T22:34:53Z</published>
    <updated>2006-11-11T16:52:30Z</updated>
    <title>Re: How Fast Can You Fly Backward? Or Why Helicopter Pilots are Superior</title>
    <summary>*Sigh* …another example of aviation penis envy. Whenever someone starts slamming others, especially other pilots about their jets, look out. To paraphrase Shreck, sounds like he’s trying to compensate for something. Anyway…I like helicopters. I think they’re kinda cool and would love trying to fly one. But, in the end, I like the idea of carrying enough killing power to equal a modern-day American artillery unit. Me. Alone. By myself. As far as “operating by the numbers” is concerned, the fixed wing community does that because it must. To not do so puts you and the people around and underneath...</summary>
    <author>
      <name><![CDATA[Dusty (AKA <em>Attila of Argghhh!</em>)]]></name>
      <uri>www.thedonovan.com</uri>
    </author>
    
    <category term="Testosterone Alert" />
    
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="http://www.thedonovan.com/">
      <![CDATA[<p>*Sigh* …another example of aviation penis envy. </p>

<p>Whenever someone starts slamming others, especially other pilots about their jets, look out. To paraphrase Shreck, sounds like he’s trying to compensate for something. </p>

<p>Anyway…I like helicopters. I think they’re kinda cool and would love trying to fly one. But, in the end, I like the idea of carrying enough killing power to equal a modern-day American artillery unit. Me. Alone. By myself.</p>

<p>As far as “operating by the numbers” is concerned, the fixed wing community does that because it must. To not do so puts you and the people around and underneath you at risk. (Vtoss, by the way is not something fixed-wingers have to worry about…try Vmc, Vxse, Vyse, and Vsse, but I digress…). Every airplane, fixed wing or rotor, has limits. How about an 80-knot crosswind? 100 knots? Do you guys fly in tornados? It’s not how slow you can land, it’s what going on around you when you do that matters. Ask any Navy VERTREP guy…landing on a pitching deck is predicated on what the boat’s doing, what the winds are doing (among other things), not how much forward speed he’s got…although I’m sure that factors into the equation somewhere. </p>

<p>As far as operating environments go, ever heard of Texas Lake? See: A-10s, Nellis, Red Flag, austere operating environments. Heh. Want a spot landing? See: United States Marine Corps, Harrier pilot, standard, one each. As for flying VFR, that would be what most of the fighter guys do on most of their sorties (OK, the air-to-mudders…Hogs and Vipers more’n likely). </p>

<p>As far as flying in busy airspace goes and with cosmic cockpits…cool. And, therefore…what?</p>

<p>Workload. Well, I have fueled my own jet, loaded my own bombs…OK, they were BDUs, but gimme a few hours of checkout and I’ll help on the big stuff. Now let’s talk mission workload: 100’ AGL, three wingmen, radar threats, weapons, fuel, and mission management, based on what the FAC and ground commanders want/need. Serious helmet fires abound in this environment, but it’s when you’re most alive. And, assuming you don’t get assholed by an SA-whatever, 57mm AAA, small arms fire, or run into the friggin’ ground, it’s the ultimate high. Doing it well, even though it taxes you to the max, is THE rush…so bring on the workload.  </p>

<p>Fisking time:</p>

<p><i>“But wait, like the Ginsu knife, "there's more!" The rotor-head does it all. He does all the pre-flight planning, submits the flight plan, prepares all the paperwork…”</i></p>

<p>In the Air Force, that’s called being a “rated pilot.”</p>

<p>“…loads and briefs the passengers…”</p>

<p>Mine don’t care and don’t talk…they just go “boom.”</p>

<p>This part is my favorite:</p>

<p><i>“Finally, the all important question, "What about control touch?" I want to shut up all the hotshot fighter pilots. I've been in their aircraft and they have been in mine... I could fly theirs but they were all over the sky in mine! So then, Mr Starch Winger; when you see a Hughes 500 or Bell 206 pilot hold one skid on a 5000' knife edge ridge that is only two feet wide so passengers can step out onto the ridge, while the other skid is suspended in space... when you watch a Skycrane, Vertol, S61, 212, or 214B pilot place a hook, that's on a cable 200 feet below the aircraft, in the hand of a ground crewman... when you see a Lama, AStar, or Bell 206L land in a space in the trees that's scarcely bigger than the helicopter... and if you ever watch a BK 117, 105, or A109 pilot land in a vacant lot next to a busy freeway surrounded by power lines -at night... Well then, you'll have some idea who is the master manipulator of aviation equipment.”</i></p>

<p>Oh, please. </p>

<p>Yes, it’s easier to fly a real airplane for the first time if: you didn’t do the takeoff, don’t do the landing, don’t go to the range, don’t fly fingertip (three feet from your jet to his at cruise speeds, varying g-loads and bank angles) and basically do all the important shite you do as a fully qualified fixed-wing combat aviator. This is not to belittle the helo aviator’s skill, but it helps to put it in perspective. </p>

<p>Could I hover on my first try? Probably not very well…but if I had a competent IP, I could probably figure out the basics in a short time. I have never been in a helo as a person with hands on the controls, but, figuring the cyclic let me go forward/back and left/right and the collective gives me up/down (and power), I’d pick a visual reference on the ground and fly the airplane by keeping it in the same position relative to that point using those three controls (plus a little pedal action to keep the nose/tail aligned). Would that be a start? …and I’ll take all the techniques you’re willing to offer. </p>

<p>For “bird-like control touch,” see: USAF/USN/USMC fighter/attack pilots, all, in fingertip formation, 90-degrees of bank, 2-3 g’s, plus “Thunderbirds” and “Blue Angels” (for same in cool uniforms and surrounded by babes after landing). And that’s just one example.</p>

<p><i>“The bottom line is; if all you want is to get into the air, find a Cessna, Beech, F-16, or 757. However, if you want to truly fly, to be an artisan in aviation and develop a bird-like control touch; then, you want to be a helicopter pilot. After all, a rock would probably fly if you made it go 180 knots. The real question for our fixed wing brethren should be, ‘How fast can you fly backward?’”</i> </p>

<p>No. </p>

<p>The bottom line is, if you want to fly, get in an airplane. It can be fixed- or rotary-wing. They all have their uses, their peculiarities, their plusses and their minuses…but they’re ALL airplanes and they’re ALL fun. The real question to our rotary-wing brethren should be, “When was the last time you did a loop?”</p>

<p>Fly safe, dude.<br />
</p>]]>
      
    </content>
  </entry>

  
  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.thedonovan.com,2004://1.3236-comment:10253</id>
    <thr:in-reply-to ref="tag:www.thedonovan.com,2004://1.3236" type="text/html" href="http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2004/12/re_how_fast_can_you_fly_backward_or_why_helicopter_pilots_are_superior.html"/>
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    <title>Comment from cw4billt on 2004-12-09</title>
    <author>
        <name>cw4billt</name>
        
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="">
        <![CDATA[Which reminds me--the starched-wing folks have Magee's <i>High Flight</i>, but only us helo types have Anonymous's <i>Low Flight</i>:

<b>Oh, I have barely slipped the muddy clutch of Earth
And thrashed the skies on dusty, untracked rotor blades;
Earthward I've auto'ed, and joined the tumbling mirth
Of moths and bees--and done a thousand things
That would scare the s**t out of you--skidded and drooped and flared
At weed-level. Hov’ring there,
I've chased the frantic armadillo, and lost
The race to insignificant headwinds.
Forward, and a little up, taunting LTE
I've topped the General's hedge with drooping turns
Where never Eagle, or even Warthog flew.
And, shaking with low-frequency vibration, I've lumbered
The low uncontrolled airspace below Victor Airways,
Put out my hand and searched for FOD.</b>
]]>
    </content>
    <published>2004-12-09T16:13:20Z</published>
    <updated>2004-12-09T16:13:20Z</updated>
  </entry>
  
  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.thedonovan.com,2004://1.3236-comment:10251</id>
    <thr:in-reply-to ref="tag:www.thedonovan.com,2004://1.3236" type="text/html" href="http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2004/12/re_how_fast_can_you_fly_backward_or_why_helicopter_pilots_are_superior.html"/>
    <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2004/12/re_how_fast_can_you_fly_backward_or_why_helicopter_pilots_are_superior.html#comment-10251" />
    <title>Comment from cw4billt on 2004-12-09</title>
    <author>
        <name>cw4billt</name>
        
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="">
        <![CDATA[I know of one instance "fer-sure, fer-sure" of a -53 E-model being looped. The pilot (a Major) was transitioning from fixed-wing to fling-wing and his IP (a Captain) gave him the controls and told him to "go ahead and play with it" to get the feel of the aircraft.
The O-4 promptly yanked the cyclic into his lap.
Instant loop.
After the IP's heart crawled back down from his esophagus, he said, "Now that you got <i>that</i> out of your system, don't ever do it again with me on board...Sir."

]]>
    </content>
    <published>2004-12-09T15:22:38Z</published>
    <updated>2004-12-09T15:22:38Z</updated>
  </entry>
  
  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.thedonovan.com,2004://1.3236-comment:10237</id>
    <thr:in-reply-to ref="tag:www.thedonovan.com,2004://1.3236" type="text/html" href="http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2004/12/re_how_fast_can_you_fly_backward_or_why_helicopter_pilots_are_superior.html"/>
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    <title>Comment from Crusader on 2004-12-08</title>
    <author>
        <name>Crusader</name>
        
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="">
        I seem to recall that the USMC CH-53Es (Echos) have done loops, too.

    </content>
    <published>2004-12-08T21:52:58Z</published>
    <updated>2004-12-08T21:52:58Z</updated>
  </entry>
  
  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.thedonovan.com,2004://1.3236-comment:10204</id>
    <thr:in-reply-to ref="tag:www.thedonovan.com,2004://1.3236" type="text/html" href="http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2004/12/re_how_fast_can_you_fly_backward_or_why_helicopter_pilots_are_superior.html"/>
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    <title>Comment from Bugz on 2004-12-08</title>
    <author>
        <name>Bugz</name>
        
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="">
        Although I have a fixed wing background (F-4 Phantom) I did software development for the AH64D Apache Longbow for about 6 years.  A couple of years ago, Boeing held a 25th year anniversary celebration for the Apache, and as part of the festivities, they had a demonstration flight of one of our Longbows that included a loop.  No shit.  The Apache has enough power to maintain a constant positive g thoughout the maneuver, and can fly a loop.  I imagine if you go to the Boeing web page, they may still have some video posted of the event.  It was pretty impressive.  Eye watering, in fact.

Sustained inverted flight...nah, not even the Apache can hack that one.



    </content>
    <published>2004-12-08T19:54:35Z</published>
    <updated>2004-12-08T19:54:35Z</updated>
  </entry>
  
  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.thedonovan.com,2004://1.3236-comment:10198</id>
    <thr:in-reply-to ref="tag:www.thedonovan.com,2004://1.3236" type="text/html" href="http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2004/12/re_how_fast_can_you_fly_backward_or_why_helicopter_pilots_are_superior.html"/>
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    <title>Comment from cw4billt on 2004-12-08</title>
    <author>
        <name>cw4billt</name>
        
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="">
        <![CDATA[JHM:
All is forgiven. In the Best of All Possible Worlds, you'd have had <i>real</i> Loaches, but the vagueries of MoD procurement procedures are beyond the ken of us mere mortals, eh?
]]>
    </content>
    <published>2004-12-08T15:19:09Z</published>
    <updated>2004-12-08T15:19:09Z</updated>
  </entry>
  
  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.thedonovan.com,2004://1.3236-comment:10140</id>
    <thr:in-reply-to ref="tag:www.thedonovan.com,2004://1.3236" type="text/html" href="http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2004/12/re_how_fast_can_you_fly_backward_or_why_helicopter_pilots_are_superior.html"/>
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    <title>Comment from J.M. Heinrichs on 2004-12-07</title>
    <author>
        <name>J.M. Heinrichs</name>
        
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="">
        CW4BillT:
We didn&apos;t have the -6, so the Kiowa had to be &quot;LOACH&quot;.

Cheers
JMH
    </content>
    <published>2004-12-08T03:44:57Z</published>
    <updated>2004-12-08T03:44:57Z</updated>
  </entry>
  
  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.thedonovan.com,2004://1.3236-comment:10138</id>
    <thr:in-reply-to ref="tag:www.thedonovan.com,2004://1.3236" type="text/html" href="http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2004/12/re_how_fast_can_you_fly_backward_or_why_helicopter_pilots_are_superior.html"/>
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    <title>Comment from Kool Aid on 2004-12-07</title>
    <author>
        <name>Kool Aid</name>
        <uri>http:/subliminalkoolaid.com</uri>
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="http:/subliminalkoolaid.com">
        I liked what one of the pilots I flew with regulary did. We were flying with a couple of F-15 jocks off our wing, one of which decided to practice a few B.F.M&apos;s. He then comments across the radio &quot;I&apos;d like to see you guys do that!&quot;  My pilot calmly replied &quot;Sorry dude...missed it...I was getting my steak out of the oven.&quot; The radio went strangely silent.
    </content>
    <published>2004-12-08T01:07:25Z</published>
    <updated>2004-12-08T01:07:25Z</updated>
  </entry>
  
  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.thedonovan.com,2004://1.3236-comment:10128</id>
    <thr:in-reply-to ref="tag:www.thedonovan.com,2004://1.3236" type="text/html" href="http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2004/12/re_how_fast_can_you_fly_backward_or_why_helicopter_pilots_are_superior.html"/>
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    <title>Comment from cw4billt on 2004-12-07</title>
    <author>
        <name>cw4billt</name>
        
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="">
        Dusty: The &quot;clown loach&quot; of the Silver Eagles--long-since disbanded by the Army because &quot;fuel costs were becoming prohibitive&quot;--used to finish each airshow by looping his OH-6 (fully-articulated, but it&apos;s just easier doing it rigid-rotor). Pretty much any helicopter will do a decent Split-S if you keep it in trim, but you haven&apos;t really lived until you&apos;ve done a Hammerhead to zero airspeed with a pedal-turn at the top (aka &quot;return-to-target&quot;) in a Cobra. Not recommended if the bad guys have large-caliber stuff, though.
JMH: The term &quot;Loach&quot; is generally acknowledged to refer to the OH-6, rather than the Kiowa (the &quot;OH-Five-point-Eight&quot;--because it&apos;s not quite as good as a &quot;Six&quot;). I know of two pilots who looped OH-58Ds and survived, but sustained inverted flight in helicopters in incondusive to longevity...
    </content>
    <published>2004-12-07T19:24:38Z</published>
    <updated>2004-12-07T19:24:38Z</updated>
  </entry>
  
  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.thedonovan.com,2004://1.3236-comment:10067</id>
    <thr:in-reply-to ref="tag:www.thedonovan.com,2004://1.3236" type="text/html" href="http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2004/12/re_how_fast_can_you_fly_backward_or_why_helicopter_pilots_are_superior.html"/>
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    <title>Comment from J.M. Heinrichs on 2004-12-06</title>
    <author>
        <name>J.M. Heinrichs</name>
        
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="">
        I heard of a LOACH pilot with 408 Squadron (in the late 70&apos;s) who looped a Kiowa ...

Cheers
JMH
    </content>
    <published>2004-12-07T04:50:15Z</published>
    <updated>2004-12-07T04:50:15Z</updated>
  </entry>
  
  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.thedonovan.com,2004://1.3236-comment:10066</id>
    <thr:in-reply-to ref="tag:www.thedonovan.com,2004://1.3236" type="text/html" href="http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2004/12/re_how_fast_can_you_fly_backward_or_why_helicopter_pilots_are_superior.html"/>
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    <title>Comment from Instapilot on 2004-12-06</title>
    <author>
        <name>Instapilot</name>
        <uri>http://www.thedonovan.com</uri>
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="http://www.thedonovan.com">
        Must...control...Fist...of...Death...

I do rant, don&apos;t I?

Heh.
    </content>
    <published>2004-12-07T04:22:41Z</published>
    <updated>2004-12-07T04:22:41Z</updated>
  </entry>
  
  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.thedonovan.com,2004://1.3236-comment:10065</id>
    <thr:in-reply-to ref="tag:www.thedonovan.com,2004://1.3236" type="text/html" href="http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2004/12/re_how_fast_can_you_fly_backward_or_why_helicopter_pilots_are_superior.html"/>
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    <title>Comment from Justthisguy on 2004-12-06</title>
    <author>
        <name>Justthisguy</name>
        
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="">
        Magnificent rant, there. Not just androgens but ethanol too. (Takes one to know one.)

    </content>
    <published>2004-12-07T04:18:36Z</published>
    <updated>2004-12-07T04:18:36Z</updated>
  </entry>
  
  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.thedonovan.com,2004://1.3236-comment:10064</id>
    <thr:in-reply-to ref="tag:www.thedonovan.com,2004://1.3236" type="text/html" href="http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2004/12/re_how_fast_can_you_fly_backward_or_why_helicopter_pilots_are_superior.html"/>
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    <title>Comment from Instapilot on 2004-12-06</title>
    <author>
        <name>Instapilot</name>
        <uri>http://www.thedonovan.com</uri>
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="http://www.thedonovan.com">
        Loops are bad for helos...unless they have a rigid rotor system. And even then it&apos;s tricky &apos;cause of blade flex and all the other magic stuff associated with flying those buggers. Frankly, it&apos;s not an option for any of the other models...which is why we stay at your high six. That said, Hogs fighting helos can be like inexperienced Viper guys (or, better yet, Eagle guys...heh) fighting Hogs. If you come down low with a slow mover, he&apos;ll whack you, expecially if he has AIM-9s or an equivalent. So...he may be slow but, like a badger, he can bite hard if you give him the opportunity. You can get &apos;im, but you gotta respect &apos;im.
    </content>
    <published>2004-12-07T03:41:49Z</published>
    <updated>2004-12-07T03:41:49Z</updated>
  </entry>
  
  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.thedonovan.com,2004://1.3236-comment:10061</id>
    <thr:in-reply-to ref="tag:www.thedonovan.com,2004://1.3236" type="text/html" href="http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2004/12/re_how_fast_can_you_fly_backward_or_why_helicopter_pilots_are_superior.html"/>
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    <title>Comment from John of Argghhh! on 2004-12-06</title>
    <author>
        <name>John of Argghhh!</name>
        <uri>http://www.thedonovan.com</uri>
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="http://www.thedonovan.com">
        As one of them mean sumbitches, I&apos;ll keep to myself what I thought as you guys went back to your tents and cots and I disappeared into the underbrush...

Of course, the point man thought I had it cushy, too!

Oh, yeah - and I don&apos;t know about loops, but I&apos;ve been barrel-rolled in a Blackhawk.

    </content>
    <published>2004-12-07T03:07:04Z</published>
    <updated>2004-12-07T03:07:04Z</updated>
  </entry>
  
  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.thedonovan.com,2004://1.3236-comment:10059</id>
    <thr:in-reply-to ref="tag:www.thedonovan.com,2004://1.3236" type="text/html" href="http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2004/12/re_how_fast_can_you_fly_backward_or_why_helicopter_pilots_are_superior.html"/>
    <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2004/12/re_how_fast_can_you_fly_backward_or_why_helicopter_pilots_are_superior.html#comment-10059" />
    <title>Comment from Sgt Hook on 2004-12-06</title>
    <author>
        <name>Sgt Hook</name>
        <uri>http://www.sgthook.com</uri>
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="http://www.sgthook.com">
        As a 17 year rotor head I&apos;m with John on this one, flying down a valley masking behind trees and suddenly doing a peddle turn sliding sideways into an LZ to drop off some 30 mean sum bitches armed to the teeth is a pretty good rush.
    </content>
    <published>2004-12-07T02:48:55Z</published>
    <updated>2004-12-07T02:48:55Z</updated>
  </entry>
  
  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.thedonovan.com,2004://1.3236-comment:10058</id>
    <thr:in-reply-to ref="tag:www.thedonovan.com,2004://1.3236" type="text/html" href="http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2004/12/re_how_fast_can_you_fly_backward_or_why_helicopter_pilots_are_superior.html"/>
    <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2004/12/re_how_fast_can_you_fly_backward_or_why_helicopter_pilots_are_superior.html#comment-10058" />
    <title>Comment from John of Argghhh! on 2004-12-06</title>
    <author>
        <name>John of Argghhh!</name>
        <uri>http://www.thedonovan.com</uri>
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="http://www.thedonovan.com">
        I thought that might bring you out of hiding!

That was a pretty tightly controlled, how did you say that?  Oh, yeah - &quot;F**k-S**t-Hate Debrief&quot;... as you would give to a child too young to know better.
    </content>
    <published>2004-12-07T02:13:53Z</published>
    <updated>2004-12-07T02:13:53Z</updated>
  </entry>
  
</feed>

