We're the Military and Airpower Guys of Jonah Goldberg of National Review Online + a stray we found wandering around looking lost. All original material JHD, BHD, JR, WT, and KA 2003-2010 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2004/12/good_order_and_discipline.html Sat, 24 Mar 2012 16:05:37 Z Movable Type 4.12 en Copyright 2012 http://www.rssboard.org/rss-specification Two related stories in the papers today. Soldiers suing over the "Stop Loss" policy, and the results of the disciplinary actions against the platoon that refused to conduct the convoy mission. They aren't directly connected, but they they both go to the core of what the services term "Good Order and Discipline" an essential component of unit effectiveness and cohesiveness. In the first case, 8 soldiers, one by name, the other anonymously, as they fear retribution, are suing the Army over "Stop Loss". Stop loss is authority granted to the Secretary of Defense to order that certain types of soldiers... http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2004/12/good_order_and_discipline.html http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2004/12/good_order_and_discipline.html Mon, 06 Dec 2004 08:36:01 -0600 Looks like a failure of leadership up the food chain to me. When I first commented on this "mutiny" on Oct 15, I suggested that apparent "refusal" required more investigation including whether or not the troops involved reported, in advance of this mission assignment, that their equipment was in such poor condition that they could not use it to perform any mission. If the troops were reporting their concerns and their reports were being ignored by higher levels, then I, if I were the investigating officer, would have probably gone light on the troops and gone hard after the senior personnel who failed to act on the reports to correct the problems that had been identified. The troops could not be completely exonerated because they did not perform what may have been a "mission critical" task, but my guess is that court martialing them was not in the cards since there were serious unit leadership problems. At least that's how I read the tea leaves. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2004/12/good_order_and_discipline.html#comment-10063 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2004/12/good_order_and_discipline.html#comment-10063 Mon, 06 Dec 2004 21:20:18 -0600 One time I was an eensy-teensy bit AWOL due to unforeseen circumstances (about 7 hrs due to a small romantic entanglement), and my 1SG asked me if I wanted to see the CO for Art 15 discussions or if I wanted to "work" for him. Duh (I thought)! Well, several weeks and about a hundred hours of extra duty later, I was wishin' I'd taken the Art-15 because that extra time was piled on top of the NBC NCO work I was already doing. And of course, I could have picked a better time to miss a couple of formations than a few weeks before the IG, eh? Do you know how hard it is to attach concertina wire to the top of a 6 foot chain-link fence? In the snow? By yourself? At night? Or how difficult it is to make yellow paint stick to armor unit motor-pool floors? Or that old WWII German barracks hallways are about 40' wide and 600' long, with 20 foot high windows and take a few hundred gallons of water to GI? Ugh! Frankly, she wasn't worth it. As for the folks in Iraq, well, as John said, I'd bet justice was served, and also that some folks walked away relatively cleanly, all things considered. Just a thought. -SangerM http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2004/12/good_order_and_discipline.html#comment-10054 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2004/12/good_order_and_discipline.html#comment-10054 Mon, 06 Dec 2004 12:32:31 -0600 Great post! The key is off course maintaining "Good Order and Discipline" which I am of the opinion is not only an "essential component" as you described, it is the core component. Having said that, the use of NJP over a court seems to be a wise move not only to ensure good order and discipline within that unit, but also within the rest of the force. All eyes are on this over there and if the chain of command of that unit is as weak as I suspect, this certainly is the right way to go. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2004/12/good_order_and_discipline.html#comment-10051 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2004/12/good_order_and_discipline.html#comment-10051 Mon, 06 Dec 2004 12:09:22 -0600 I'd think you have a portion of the last bit backward. When I was a young enlisted troop the scuttlebut was never, ever, ever demand courtmartial 'cause the penalties were so much worse and no commander would offer an Art. 15 without being able to prove a court. When I was a unit commander I pretty much lived by this. If I didn't have evidence to prove a violation to a court I'd never offer an Art. 15. However, I did notice some of my peers using NJP in this fashion, which is really pretty despicable since in most cases the issue was more the commander being pissy than a troop stepping out of line. So, if the troops that refused the mission (always a troops right if they feel the order was either unlawful or immoral) because they thought they had valid grounds then why not force a court and make the poor leadership prove their point. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2004/12/good_order_and_discipline.html#comment-10046 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2004/12/good_order_and_discipline.html#comment-10046 Mon, 06 Dec 2004 10:29:19 -0600 No argument here- the court martial would have been unjust, but an Article 15 is merited. Since the details weren't released, we don't really know what their punishment was, but I have a feeling it will err on the lesser side of punishment. I'm hoping that they got a slap in the wrist in the form of extra duty, but no detention time or loss of pay. I could see the highest ranking officer charged losing rank, but that's about it. Cool heads have prevailed. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2004/12/good_order_and_discipline.html#comment-10045 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2004/12/good_order_and_discipline.html#comment-10045 Mon, 06 Dec 2004 09:49:05 -0600