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December 13, 2006

H&I* Fires, 13 DEC 2006

Open post for those with something to share, updated through the day. New, complete posts come in below this one. Note: If trackbacking, please acknowledge this post in your post. That's only polite.

You're advertising here, we should get an ad at your place...

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Two steps forward and one step back seems to be the fate of the F-35. Yesterday Canada signs on. Today Britain tosses a hissy fit over it and threatens to not buy.
ry
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Snerk. Speaking of throwing hissyfits - Ry does a pretty good one himself over at Alan's place, and gets a pat on the back for doing it. Too much potty mouth for *this* space, though. No wonder Ry gets all wordy over here, he's compensating for the PG-17c!

Jules *likes* the Holocaust Conference in Iran. If only because, by their words and their deeds shall you know them. He also notes the death of an AP photographer (and other journalists) who actually did their job, rather than flacked their politics.

Oops. The recruiters and their recruits Just Don't Get The Message! How is Mr. Rangel going to get his draft if people keep joining voluntarily? -the Armorer

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Heh.

Ney lawyers urge letter-writing By Jim Snyder Lawyers for Bob Ney last week urged his friends to write letters of support in advance of the former Ohio Republican representative’s sentencing on corruption charges in January.

The attorneys hope to show the judge that the actions that led Ney to plead guilty to corruption charges in October were an aberration in a professional career otherwise dedicated to public service. Ney was a member of the House at the time of his guilty plea, but later resigned his seat.

“Letters of support are a very important part of the sentencing process, and, we hope, will give Judge Huvelle a clear picture of the kind of person Bob is, the contributions he has made, and the support that he continues to enjoy from his friends and others in the community,” wrote Ney attorneys Mark Tuohey and David Hawkins of Vinson & Elkins in a Dec. 6 letter obtained by The Hill.

Here's mine: Dear Judge Huvelle: A crooked and corrupt politician is a crooked and corrupt politician, who does much more damage to "trust and confidence" than is simply wrapped up in the dollar amounts of the graft. Please keep that in mind as you send him to the slammer for the maximum amount of time allowable, and hit him with the maximum restitution requirement. Let him *earn* his way back to polite society by his behavior in prison and performance in paying his debts. Anything else, for his ilk, comes off as a partial victory.

We shouldn't allow those who seek power to duck the responsibility for it's abuse, no matter how nice they are.

Cheers,

John of Argghhh!

BTW - the same thing applies to General Officers. Just sayin'.

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Today's Must-read: War Weary. Lex on "The Long War" with his usual...oh, I give up describing it. Just go and read it. It's good. - FbL

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I forgot: Vote for Us. The lefties are winning this category in a walk... though MVRWC and Stop the ACLU are giving 'em a run for the money. Oh, piffle. We can't catch anyone. Go vote for Stop the ACLU, and maybe the Right can score second place... Oh, and I'm throwing my votes to Lex for Best Military Blog - if only to keep Matt's head under control. -the Armorer

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*A term of art from the artillery. Harassment and Interdiction Fires.

Back in the day, when you could just kill people and break things without a note from a lawyer, they were pre-planned, but to the enemy, random, fires at known gathering points, road junctions, Main Supply Routes, assembly areas, etc - to keep the bad guy nervous that the world around him might start exploding at any minute.

Not really relevant to today's operating environment, right? But, it *is*

The UAVs we fly over Afghanistan and Pakistan looking for targets of opportunity are a form of H&I fires, if you really want to parse it finely. We just have better sensors and fire control now.

I call the post that because it's random things posted by me and people I've given posting privileges to. It's also an open trackback, so if (Don Surber uses it this way a lot) someone has a post they're proud of, but it really isn't either Castle kind of stuff, or topical to a particular post, I've basically given blanket permission to use that post for that purpose. Another term of art that might be appropriate is "Free Fire Zone".

Comments on H&I* Fires, 13 DEC 2006
Cricket briefed on December 13, 2006 09:51 AM

ry's rant just proves my point: Eat butter and avoid alkyhol.

heh.

OTOH there is Julia Child who lived to be 92 and still sound of mind. So, butter and wine are good for you.

Double heh.

Ry, I don't understand any chemistry, but I take it that since we have enzymes we can break down what we ingest? And if a substance is toxic, is it because our bodies are not able to digest and metabolize those that are deemed toxic?

And don't bite my head off for asking. I detest the taste of margarine on principle and refuse to use artificial fats because of the nasty mouthfeel they have. Trans fats are not the issue; good taste and digestibility are.

As the Castle Chef, I have a duty to the Denizens to make sure that their food is good and healthy.
That's why John hates the grilled beets.

Trias briefed on December 13, 2006 12:00 PM

Well Ry sure was bucking and kicking there. He even threw in the old alcohol argument. Of course his assumption that Coke contains aspartme is kind of odd. I thought it was only present in diet coke.

Maybe it would have been better to use the word metabolised than digested.

Ry I know you love your margarine melting in the sun experiment but you should try it. That sort of thing happens over here a lot. You just end up with soup not stinky soup, i'm guessing the oxygen doesn't penetrate that much.

John of Argghhh! briefed on December 13, 2006 01:24 PM

Oooo! Trias returns Ry's serve!

[reaches for popcorn]

kat-missouri briefed on December 13, 2006 01:44 PM

Yo...John,

Apparently, while I was on a small hiatus (I didn't realize how long that had been), my email was deactivated. Just reset it. Could you drop me an email?

Howdy to all the denizens.

Cricket briefed on December 13, 2006 01:52 PM

John, you want butter or butter flavored trans fat on yer popcorn? I am leaving the choice of beverage up to the Denizens; we're all over 21.

*sashays off to the kitchen to prepare tortilla soup and veg quesadillas*

John of Argghhh! briefed on December 13, 2006 02:11 PM

Butter!

ry briefed on December 13, 2006 02:11 PM

I guess I deserved that. (glares)

Cricket:
"but I take it that since we have enzymes we can break down what we ingest? "
Digestion/metabolization is complicated. Enzymes aid in certain parts of digestion/making bio-available nutrients, but aren't involved in others. Not everything you ingest is digestable(see below where I talk about fibre). If you really want a lot of the details this lady here(http://nutrition.ucdavis.edu/faculty/applegate.html) Dr. Applegate is a good start. She's very approachable(or at least she was when I was at UCD in '98-01).

Toxity is a very broad and complex thing(like Chromium is toxic in one ionic state but necessary in trace levels in another ionic state but above trace is toxic). The only basic thing I can think of is that something is toxic because it causes some biological function to fail/not work properly. That'n not the same thing as arterial plaque. Venoms cause cells to cease funcioning. Arterial plawue is just crud filling up a pipe so less fluid gets thru--which eventually causes your heart to fail from lack of oxygen and exhaustion.

Enzymes for digenstion or other metabolic processes, generally, have nothing to do with a given substances toxity. It's rather a binary situation. It either is or isn't. The enzymes and metabolic processes are your body's means of dealing with toxic substances. Lactic acid is a toxin produced within muscle cells via aerobic resperation(when you're working to hard), but your body has a means of getting rid of it before it causes serious damage.

A common measure of toxity is LD50---lethal dosage 50, meaning the level at which a dose kills 50% of a population.

Digestability is also not really a factor. You need certain fibers, utterly unable to be absorbed by the digestive system, or you'd chronically get the 'chits', dehydrate, and possibly die. Toxity is a result of what it does to a biological system is the simplest way I can say it.

Um, wine is alcohol(laden). Ethanol. That's what makes you all giddy when you drink enough of it. There's research out there that a small amount of ethanol is good for you for various reasons. But drinking to the 'buzz' stage is generally in excess of that(no, that isn't the 'old alcohol' old wives tale. That's fact, Trias. Look at the action of alcohol in the brain---binding within nuerons in particular---and you'll see that it causes oxy debt. You do kill brain cells. It's just that the old wives tale exagerrates the extent greatly.).

"And don't bite my head off for asking." I bit Hans' head off because he told me I was an idiot because he didn't understand my argument. If he remembered his HS chemistry he wouldn't have called me an idiot. So I yelled at him. You're saying that you don't get it and wouldn't mind seeing something in an attempt to explain it(before calling me an idiot). There's a difference, Cricket.

"I detest the taste of margarine on principle and refuse to use artificial fats because of the nasty mouthfeel they have. Trans fats are not the issue; good taste and digestibility are."
Well, we simply have different palates. There are things I would want butter for and things I would rather have margarine for(buttering my toast for toast and soup, like I'm eating right now, for instance). That's why I pointed out the Alton Brown show. He goes into why in his cookie episode and does the explanation for why in good laymans terms. Like with anything, cheap margarine will not taste/perform as well as quality stuff.

I really have a crappy palate according to The Wife. I really can't taste the difference a lot of the time. I like Velveta, and, like the Armorer, have a weak spot for McDonald's. I eat crap but enjoy it immensely.

THe issue over at Al's was whether or not it was public enemy #1 and not taste. YOu're perfectly welcome to shun trans-fats all you want Cricket. I just get ornery when people start a) telling me I don't know what I'm talking about when I know way more about the subject than they do b) trying to take things away that I enjoy in the name of 'protecting me from myself' c) getting the science wrong.

"to make sure that their food is good and healthy." Well, then lots of good tasting stuff is out the window. Particularly anything drenched in butter or utilizing cream. There's a max per day allowance for dietary fats, and just about anything that's even remotely tasty exceeds that. Don't be a killjoy or change how you cook Cricket!

"That's why John hates the grilled beets." The war on beets continues. We shall destroy the hated beets. We have always been at war with beets.

"Ry I know you love your margarine melting in the sun experiment but you should try it." Trias, you should try it. Leave it out for a week. Do you know how many ppb it takes for you to even smell the acid---which reminds me I need to put the margarine back in the fridge, brb---resulting from oxidation? How many ppm before it starts to taste bad? If you leave a stick of real butter out it takes more than a day for it to smell rancid. Even if it's a 40C day. Same for wine or beer. It'll take several warm days, but eventually it'll turn to vinegar(acetic acid resulting from oxidation of the ethanol). But the point is: yes, it'll spoil and is subject to the same processes as other dietary fats. Crush up a bunch of palladium or magnesium(I think) and mix it in and it'll happen much quicker for both. It'll also happen a lot faster if you spread it as a thin film on a pan and leave it in the sun. Can't forget kinetics you know(orientation and energy).

All a trans-fat is is a fat that has the position of one of the hydrogens switched across a double bond somewhere in the molecule. That changes the geometry of the molecule and makes it less bulky(making it low density(density being mass/volume) and the products low density lipids).

"Of course his assumption that Coke contains aspartme is kind of odd." I was just trying to think of what it was that people would object to in Coke---not like I know the formula off hand, even if I have a three can a day habit. Caffeine is usually something people go after. Synthetic sweeteners is usually another(cancer!(if taken at kilograms per pound body mass levels---which is what they did with those rats)). So then I went after the carbonic acid/ulcer argument. I just can't see why people think Coke is life threatening.
(end)
THat's it. I need to sleep before I go pick up Jess and go to work tonight. Have fun kicking dirt in my face, y'all.

(glares) Wicked bastid.

John of Argghhh! briefed on December 13, 2006 02:15 PM

Head swivels back to Trias.

[Munches buttery popcorn]

FbL briefed on December 13, 2006 02:23 PM

Hi,Kat!!!!!!

You were missed!

Trias briefed on December 13, 2006 03:06 PM

Ry I'm not talking about the wives tale you bring up, i'm talking about the ethanol/alcohol thing.

A WEEK? What lazy arse would leave it for a week. I wonder if the yellow colouring could be bleached out. Ry I know it'll spoil. Palladium and magnesium are not exactly representitive of a non severe evironment. I could make crude oil spoil with the right catalyst although I suppose it smells anyway. I could bubble food grade oxygen through it as well. I bet that would speed things up.

Object to in Coke? Caffeine, food acid, cocaine and sugar, with diet coke having aspartme instead of sugar. You can find pseudo and real science stuff on Coke with all of those on the net. Frankly if Coke and margarine were so dangerous there would be a lot more death by now considering the enormous and widespread consumption of them.

One thing tho Ry, is how much of the conversion is merely the reaction you display. In a real process with organic materials the reaction chemistry is far more complex and so to may the products be. The next question is the degree of post reaction purification which goes on.

kat-Missouri briefed on December 13, 2006 03:48 PM

Oy...but on the subject of butter v. margerine and state laws, etc...

So..we're poisoning ourselves with junk. Was that a news flash?

I just don't think french fries taste the same without a dose of trans fatty oily, salty, stuff.

Cricket briefed on December 13, 2006 04:34 PM

I know Ry will back me on this one: Most soft drinks manufactured in the USA have high fructose corn syrup.

Ry, thanks for the answer. You get an apple fritter with a HUGE glass of milk.

As to fried foods and all the rest of the debate:
You can't raise a family without Burger Thing, Mickey Dee's or the rest of them.

John of Argghhh! briefed on December 13, 2006 05:47 PM

Head swivels back to Ry.

[Sips from Great Freaking Goblet of Coke, brushes popcorn from shelf above the belt]

kat-missouri briefed on December 13, 2006 06:36 PM

[grabs great big handful of salty, buttery popcorn from John and stuffs it in mouth, picking up the pieces that fall on shelf positioned slightly higher than John's]

MMmmph...uuhhh don' seh eh problum. [swallowing with giant slurp of 20 oz Coke]

After global warming is the great new ice age. I'm just trying to prepare myself for the hibernation period. LOL

[licks oily, salty flavored stuff from fingers and in between]

lex briefed on December 13, 2006 07:57 PM

Thanks for your vote, John - and the link, Lioness.

Bad Cat Robot briefed on December 13, 2006 08:40 PM

Dragging the subject back to the great Jihad against Beets -- didja know the evil beet contains insoluble fiber? This is the Not Good stuff vs. the happy soluble fiber you *should* eat. Yet another reason to wipe their tuberous presence from the face of the earth. (Celery has insoluble fiber too. I am willing to include it in the target list but I suspect few will follow me.)

Alan briefed on December 13, 2006 09:58 PM

Ry rocks because he teaches me things. That is what I get at Castle Argghhh, too. There is so much crap on the internet and so many parrots that you have to give out the gold stars to thems that deserves them.

Although I am not sure, due to the intervention of a tedious two-dimensional libertarian, whether I have still had confirmed for me the degree to which trans fat clog arteries faster than non-synthetic fats. If I have to swim X to work of Y food, I sure as hell don't want to have to swim 37X to deal with "Y new and improved with trans fats."

Cricket briefed on December 13, 2006 10:26 PM

Alan, in Ry's post I think he mentioned some fats that went right to the gut. I think those were the ones that caused 'anal leaking.' He can correct me if I am wrong. I took a biology course years and years ago...when I was loading up with pre med classes. The prof pointed out the saturation level of shortening, vs. margarine and butter. Of the three, shortening I think was the most heavily saturated. It is digestible, but
tastes disgusting to me, even in pie crust.

We went on to discuss the importance of fats in the diet, animal and vegetable. I use butter,
will not be caught dead with Shed's Spred or any other fake butter. We use leaf lard from the belly of the pig because it is most like kidney suet...which I have used to make soap. yeah, I am one of those geeks who likes to do things the 'hard way.' Keeps me appreciating life in the 21st century.

I have noticed that when I have given my LD son cod liver oil, he is calm and able to concentrate.

Anyway, my prof also pointed out that eating the real thing wasn't as bad as the fake stuff with the additives and preservatives etc, which can trigger allergies or headaches.

He made a believer out of me. To this day, the main fats I use in cooking, baking and flavoring are butter, olive oil, coconut oil and peanut oil.

Justthisguy briefed on December 13, 2006 11:18 PM

Oh yeah, Cricket, Leaf Lard. Ever make a real English Puddin'?

P.S. Maybe I should try the Cod Liver Oil? Or is it too late for me? Snork!

Maggie briefed on December 14, 2006 12:22 AM

Butter! Real butter! On popcorn with M&Ms sprinkled on top. Wash it down with REAL Coke from well chilled glass bottles. MMMMM

Anyway, screw transfats...bring back lard.

I've never eaten a beet. Apparently my mother didn't care for them, so they were never on the menu. I was 35 before I tried broccoli.

ry briefed on December 14, 2006 04:38 AM

"Although I am not sure, due to the intervention of a tedious two-dimensional libertarian, whether I have still had confirmed for me the degree to which trans fat clog arteries faster than non-synthetic fats." ACtually Al, I think you have been given an idea of how much more quickly and to a greater extent tf clog arteries. It's in the article you cited. Unless they cheated(which well, activist scientists do sometimes) you have an idea---about twice as fast as saturated fats (with the various unsat fats causing blockage even slower than saturated fats). "According to a recent study involving some eighty thousand women, for every five-per-cent increase in the amount of saturated fats that a woman consumes, her risk of heart disease increases by seventeen per cent. But only a two-per-cent increase in trans fats will increase her heart-disease risk by ninety-three per cent." That needs to be adjusted for proportions and what not, but 2x as fast is a good enough for arguments sake.

But my main point has been all along that if you eat tasty burned flesh or anything with cream in it you're already causing cardiac damage. If, as is the argument posed by gorthos(which I suspect is the main thrust of it for you as well), that the increased social cost makes it something to consider 86ing why no 86 anything with saturated fats as well since the same argument applies---if only at a slower rate? Has nothing to do with people being stupid or not reading labels and everything to do with the science and being consistent with our ethics in my mind.

Trias, do you see why I have to balance between going hard core in this discusssion? Trying to import chemdraw figures for reactions, talking about all the side reactions and the extent that they occur depending on the conditions at which we are operating under(a shift of a few degrees body temp can cause a major shift for some reactions you know)? I have to balance the need for the layman and the not so layman(I'm not a food science guy.) Herr Low Intesity Conflict's wife works for General Mills as a process engineer. I may have to bug her since she knows TONS more than I on this.).
Particulars you brought up about Coke: well, cocaine hasn't been in there for many decades. The rest? What doesn't apply in that list to orange juice or red bull or coffee? My point is that there's hysteria about it, which you seem to agree with to some degree. When I was still coaching, and I ran with my kids, I drank a 2 2L bottles of Coke a day and had much better cardiohealth than my brother who avoided 'nasty stuff' like that and ate Mongolian bbq and home made potatoe soup(I was about 80 pounds lighter then too). Everything has issues with it. Even soy and pure veganism(UCD published a study about how pure veganism caused a deficiency in micronutrients that really adversly affected children. Paul McCartney got REAL pissed over that one.).
You're really taking the butter/margarine spoilage thing out of its context and its purpose. THe claim I was dealing with at Al's was that it was a virtually indestructable molecule. Which is false. It spoils and is absorbed/digested/metabolized by the body.
Palladium actually would negate the need for harsh conditions, that's what catalysts are for, neh? Enzymes are great catalysts and that's why reactions that occur in the human body can be done without argon atmospheres, 300C temps, high pressure, etc.
I don't know about bubbling Ox thru though. That'd be interesting to try. QUick, grab a cylinder and I'll met you in MElbourne. Then we can try and make the margarine explode. (evil grin)
"One thing tho Ry, is how much of the conversion is merely the reaction you display. In a real process with organic materials the reaction chemistry is far more complex and so to may the products be. The next question is the degree of post reaction purification which goes on" Then you should attack all the text book companies too, mon ami. I know it is hard to accept coming from me, but I am trying to avoid info overload here, Trias.
The side reactions, enantiomer selectivity, chemo-selectivity, yields at conditions, etc..., purification(a monkey can make a molecule but it takes a man to isolate it) is well outside the level of the rest of the audience. You have to tailor your writing to the audience---at least that's what I'm told whenever I write for publications(no, I'm not published and don't waste your time looking).
"Ry I'm not talking about the wives tale you bring up, i'm talking about the ethanol/alcohol thing" you're speaking clear Queen's English but I'm stumped as to what you mean if not the old wives tale. What's your objection to what I'm sayin' then?

"Alan, in Ry's post I think he mentioned some fats that went right to the gut. I think those were the ones that caused 'anal leaking.'" Olestra. Not sure how they classify that bad boy. It's a highly tailored molecule so that it connot be absorbed thru the intestine or stomach. AS far as I know most dietary fats are abosorbable somewhere along the digestive track. I just know that when I go to Denny's and wind up eating my 3 strips of bacon, 3 sausage links, and the 2 of each The Wife doesn't eat I've overpowered my body's ability to absorb it all, with not so great results(but at least I don't waste a bunch of food.). Most fats, I think, are digestible.
The thing with olestra is something that BCR hits on with this"evil beet contains insoluble fiber? This is the Not Good stuff vs. the happy soluble fiber you *should* eat. " (first, a correction. You need both. If all you ate was soluble fibre you'd get the runs and dehydrate. You need your ruffage for proper elimination via number 2(http://www.annieappleseedproject.org/undietfib.html http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/focus/nutrition/facts/lifestylemanagement/fibre.htm). Olestra interferes with the action of the insoluble fibre to cause things to 'clump'. So you get.... well nasty stuff. THere's a critical cut amount below which eating olestra is hunky dory. Above that---volcano.
The point about olestra was that it was meant to avoid ingestion of harmful fats(sat fats and the like) that weren't necessary for body regulation( you need some to generate bile salts and cholesterol in your liver). It just has some side effects. Noble effort. I'm not eating it.

There's stuff that should be wiped out, like beets, but not because they have insoluble fibre cause you need that for bowel movements. BUt still, WAR ON BEETS!!!!!!
"I know Ry will back me on this one: Most soft drinks manufactured in the USA have high fructose corn syrup." (Looks at Coke can, well, pile of cans, on my desk. I get so tired of Courtney looking at my monitor I'm building a wall of Coke cans to form a curtain) Yup.

"He made a believer out of me. To this day, the main fats I use in cooking, baking and flavoring are butter, olive oil, coconut oil and peanut oil." This is the interesting, to me, point. Why are these fats liquids? It has to do with the unsaturation level. The unsaturation makes them bend up and fold all funny. They don't quite form balls but that's a decent analogy. The other fats are more linear or more like tree branches.
While they are better for you they aren't necessarily GOOD for you. Above a minimum requirement for good health all of them are bad for you. Just some more than others. Which is why *some* people want to outlaw fatty foods/'bad fats' altogether while some want to replace fats with things like olestra. Me? I'm no food scold. If you want to eat something then bon appetite--- we'll just come up with statins and stents.
But I much prefer Cricket's approach then some others on the issue of trans-fats/fats in general.
Okay. WHo didn't leave *ME* any Coke?

ry briefed on December 14, 2006 04:41 AM

And it's good to have Kat-Mizzou back. We should have a Castle Party forthwith

ry briefed on December 14, 2006 05:22 AM

I like Lex's reasoning, have often used similar myself, but it is talking to a wall. We've been saying the same for 3 years now. They don't believe us anymore or just don't care.

We have to accept that the public is war weary and work with that in our strategy. We MUST not abandone Iraq and Afghanistan, but we must deal with the reality that war weariness is upon us and no amount of appealing to reason/compassion will deter it. War of the indirect path time. Time to break out the Book of Bastardy and Dirty Tricks. It isn't fulfilling, but if winning matters it's the best path left to us IMO.

ry briefed on December 14, 2006 05:47 AM

Reading Kat-Mizzou's comments over there I realized why I missed her so much over here. She does a much gooder job of articulating the position than I.

Cricket briefed on December 14, 2006 09:14 AM

Ry, we go through about a pound of butter in two months. That is for cooking, baking and bread spread, and that is also for six people. I would rather eat sparingly of the good stuff and ENJOY it than suffer. I also make up a HUGE batch of egg rolls, fried then frozen. We do a LOT of roasting and we cure our own meat because I don't like nitrite salts...flavor versus anything else.

Here is a question for you; since you and I both like Alton Brown you might be able to help me with this one: I do a dry cure and a brine.
The brine carries the salt into the meat by osmosis, and makes it more tender because of the separation of the meat fibers. What about rinsing something that has been brined or dry cured? Will that get the excess salty flavor out?
I don't think it makes that much of a difference.

I also subscribe to the Supreme Geekdom of cooking magazines, Cook's Illustrated...and they haven't answered that question yet. What do you think or know about that?

*off to the Castle Kitchen to put the cookbooks in order of content, then alphbetized according to author*

John of Argghhh! briefed on December 14, 2006 09:24 AM

Cricket - age-of-sail Navies used a debrining cask. They ate salt-cured meat almost exclusively. They'd haul it from storage and dump it in a cask full of water to soak for 24 hours before cooking.

Cricket briefed on December 14, 2006 11:06 AM

Oh that just sparked a whole bunch more questions which I can just google the answers to, but I do have one that now has me curiosity piqued: How did sail powered ships collect rainwater? Were there barrels or a whole collection system?

J.M. Heinrichs briefed on December 14, 2006 11:53 AM

Cricket
The short answer is they didn't. Water was carried in barrels in the hold, where it would become very mature in a few weeks. Thus the usefulness of the rum ration. In emergency, rainwater could be collected via the sails; however the sails could collect salt from seaspray and thus the rainwater collected would tend to be a bit briny. Also, with several hundred crew on a warship, rainwater would not be collected in sufficient/reliable qualities. And rigging the sails to collect water would conflict with rigging the sails for sailing.

Cheers

Trias briefed on December 15, 2006 05:52 AM

Ry- Not sometimes... often. However there's lots of papers on the cloginess of transfats.

So Ry if we just eat the fat on the side of the burned flesh say pork crackling everything is A-OK?

Fair enough Ry but it doesn't stop me being bomardbed with calibres and ranks and other miltospeak which really is another language just like chemospeak.

I was talking about what is discussed out there Ry regardless of the truth of it, and people are still clinging on to hidden cociane in the Coke product. Coke even admitted to having the raw ingredient (the leaf i think) but that cocaine is taken out.

Orange juice doesn't have significant amounts of caffeine, at least here it doesn't. And no more than 4% sucrose, often none considering what people buy these days althoguh it contians quite a lot of natural sugars which aren't necessarily better for you, food acid is more arguable so i'll gloss over than one.

Coffee doesn't contain appreciable amounts of food acid nor sugar unless you add it yourself.

The hysteria is from Coke hate which is probably a mix of corporate mistrust, antiAmericanism and the fact that such a widespread product is bound to have it's fearmongers.

Veganism is not unsafe or unhealthy. It just doesn't taste as good as a juicy bit o mooflesh does.

Name one indestructable molecule and i'll make a liar of you. Catalysts *are* harsh conditions, they don't negate the need, they create the condition as being harsh (for the target).

Exploding marg i think we'll be famous. Or infamous but beggars can't be choosers. Maybe we could make fizzle marg like that fizzling magic gum stuff.

No objection Ry. I talk about stuff but it's not *all* your wrong wrong all wrong Ry.

Olestra is that brand name fat-like stuff banned here right? Cook their chips/crisps whatever you guys call them in it and it goes right through gives the runs too if you munch too much.

Oh yes i forgot about the corn industry over there. I actually prefer the corn syrup versions compared to our sugar ones.

Cricket you can rest assured the modern navy's food is much better than the good ol days. I wonder what the average sailor's sodium levels were in those days.

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