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January 17, 2005

The need for commerce produces strange bedfellows...

Israel - supplier to China, India, and Russia. Given the amount of Chinese and Russian stuff used against Israelis over the years - and still used in Armies hostile to Israel - this is an interesting development.

PROCUREMENT: Israel, India and Russia Produce 125mm Tank Shell

January 17, 2005: Israel, India and Russia are teaming up to manufacture superior munitions for Russian weapons. IMI (Israel Military Industries) has agreed to co-produce (with India and Russia) 125mm tank shells for Indian tanks, as well as for export. IMI has long been a producer of high end tank shells. Incorporating some of the IMI technology into 125mm shells for the Indian army will be no problem. India and Russia hope to gain experience in higher quality manufacturing methods as a result of this deal. Both Russia and India have long suffered from quality control problems in their military weapons and munitions plants.

Interesting to note in the picture above, which is from an advertisement for Indian Ordnance Factories - what do the M1 and M113 in the background represent? Targets for the ammo? Or a cachet of quality?

And, given the Schwimmwagen post below, this seems an appropriate bit to share:

ARMORED WARFARE: China's Swimming Jeep

January 17, 2005: China has developed an amphibious jeep, the BY5020TSL. The vehicle, based on the forty year old BJ2020S (itself based on the older Russian GAZ69), can drive into water and move at a top speed of 12 kilometers an hour. The 1.2 ton vehicle can carry 900 pounds, and seats five. The amphibious version is intended for reconnaissance units, to make it easier for the recon troops to get across rivers or other water obstacles. On land, these 4x4 vehicles have a top speed of 105 kilometers an hour. Civilians can buy one for $15,000, from the Beijing Jeep Company. China's basic BJ2020S design has been continually improved over the years. In the 1990s, many engineering improvements were made by using technology borrowed (via a joint manufacturing deal) from the American Jeep Cherokee.

Looks like it may have a little in common with the Ford GPA (the US amphibious Geep) of WWII, as well.

Hat tip: Strategy Page.

Comments on The need for commerce produces strange bedfellows...
GEBIV briefed on January 17, 2005 09:45 AM

Who do I make the check out to?

John of Argghhh! briefed on January 17, 2005 10:03 AM

I'm just guessing that they may not meet US safety standards for import... and are probably made by an arm of the PLA and so subject to the import ban.

But yer right. However... I think I'd still get that Ferret or Dingo or Daimler first!

John briefed on January 18, 2005 07:22 AM

What is 125mm caliber? Isn't that two different measurements?

John of Argghhh! briefed on January 18, 2005 07:50 AM

No, not really. Caliber is bore diameter, expressed from land-to-land. Ammunition is classifed by the external measurement - which should match the land-to-land dimension.

Unless you are perhaps confusing the expression of barrel length - as in '5 inch 54-caliber' naval guns. When you have multiple guns of the same caliber, you differentiate between them by adding an expression of barrel length in terms of bore diameter, a 54 caliber barrel being (in the 5inch case)270 inches, or 22.5 feet, long.

But, IIRC, you were a Coastie... and I bet that explains the confusion, the expression of barrel length being a mostly naval thang.

J.M. Heinrichs briefed on January 18, 2005 10:00 AM

Perhaps John was remembering the days when barrels were used to measure a ship's cargo capacity, as in tuns and tunnage.

My guess is that the rounds depicted are an application of Israeli production techniques to Russian ammo design; the HE and HEAT shown are 'very' Russian in appearance.


Boquisucio briefed on January 18, 2005 07:19 PM

Ah yes,

The Israelis have always had capacity to produce many types of Warsaw Pact Ordnance. This goes way back when their only ally was Good-ol' Joe Stalin, and we were supporting the other team. Funny how dynamics Geo-Politics can be.

Their early Mortar Bomb designs, amongst many other types of goodies, were close copies of the Soviet 82mm & 61mm.

Then again, and I'm only speculating... could these 125mm babies be Bosnian or Bulgarian in origin, shipped Ex Ploce or Constanza to Haifa and repainted at IMI? Tis far cheaper to buy out of these stocks and stamp it with your name, than to retool your press and forge from your normal production line. ...Just a wondering thought...


John of Argghhh! briefed on January 18, 2005 08:14 PM

Boquisucio- no, I don't think these are repaints, unless they were done by the Indians. This picture comes from an ad by the Indian Ordnance Factories. I rummaged around for it to show what kind of Ordnance the article was talking about.

As for ammo design - when it came to artillery and mortars, just about everybody in the world was copying Brandt and Nordenfeldt - IOW, the French. Most of the projectile designs through WWII were based on French WWI designs. Not exclusively, but most. Given the francophile leanings of the Tsars, and given that industry is what the Bolsheviks inherited, and the Israelis were using machinery that came out of Czechslovakia, Bulgaria, and that general region, I'm not at all surprised that the Israelis were producing what they had the tooling for.

Nor am I really surprised they continued producing it - given how much captured East Bloc gear they collected from the various Arab attempts to undo 1948.

But IMI, Israel Military Industries, has a deserved reputation for high quality products, produced efficiently, and modified (or new designs) with originality.

That's what they're selling.

But the picture in question - that's Indian-produced Ordnance, which I guess I didn't make clear.