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August 25, 2004

So, are they under some pressure, or what?

Via the Chaos Overlord we go to Protein Wisdom, who gives us this little snippet from Hannity and Colmes, August 23, 2004. Where Mary Anne Marsh, dem political strategist, loses her grip on reality.

Democratic strategist Mary Anne Marsh, speaking moments ago on “Hannity and Colmes”: “George Bush betrayed his country by sending us to war on false pretenses, and George Bush betrayed his country by not fighting in Vietnam.”

Yes. You read that right. “George Bush betrayed his country by not fighting in Vietnam.”

"George Bush betrayed his country by not fighting in Vietnam."

Given an opportunity to correct this rather incredible statement, Ms. Marsh declined, arguing that she had nothing to correct—that it was a fact that George Bush betrayed his country by not fighting in Vietnam.

Jeff goes on to opine:

...And yet roughly half of all voters will go to the ballot box this November and pull the lever for billionaire fancy lad John Kerry, the chosen representative of a party whose on-air strategists say things like “George Bush betrayed his country by not fighting in Vietnam”—and do so only a few short years after defending to the death Vietnam-avoider Bill Clinton’s right to have his hooked knob polished in the oval office by a wide-eyed, wide-hipped, genuflecting subordinate.

The Chaos Overlord comments thusly:

I wish I was surprised to hear something like this. I love it when Kerry apologists say, "Who cares what happened thirty years ago?" Well, I'd say that just about no one did before John "By the way, I served in Vietnam" Kerry ran for president. The Democratic party wanted it to be an issue. Now it is.

And NOW they tell us that if you didn't serve in Vietnam, you are a traitor.

I'm so mad I'm having a Kim du Toit RCOB moment. Jeff and the Overlord are too kind.

So, Ms. Marsh.... let me introduce you to two betrayers (by your definition):

LTC Karl Teepe, US Army, ret, an Air Defense Artilleryofficer who never served in Vietnam, but who died in the basement of the Pentagon on 11 September, 2001 working as a DIA analyst, was a betrayer of his country... I guess he at least redeemed his sin in blood. He was my ROTC instructor in 1975, and he had no combat patch, and he freely admitted he never got sent to Vietnam, because there wasn't much use for people who could shoot down airplanes with Nike Ajax and Nike Hercules missiles in South Vietnam. That there was no call for people whose specialty was the Air Defense of the continental US to serve in Vietnam in any great numbers.

Just as there were no great numbers of F102 Delta Dart Bomber Interceptors sent to Vietnam. Not one Genie missile was fired over there, either.

Just sayin'.

Well, I missed Desert Storm. I retired before 9/11, so I've missed everything since.

Now I find that one of the public faces of the Democratic party posits a criteria where my 70% disabled and retired ass is, well, a traitor. A betrayer. Faithless. Because I didn't fight in a war I was eligible for, in terms of my time of service, regardless of the needs of the service. Of course, about half of us in uniform at the time didn't fight in that one, either.

Tell me what wall to report to so that I can redeem my sin, too, you weasel-tongued charlatan.

Since I try to keep my language temperate here I'm just going to have to shut up now.

Way to influence the wavering masses, Ms. Marsh.

You brain-dead, souless, oxygen-wasting, walking caricature of a human being.

You're off the Christmas list.

John | Permalink | Comments (12) | Politics
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Comments on So, are they under some pressure, or what?
Sergeant Major V briefed on August 24, 2004 09:49 PM

I guess I'll have to add my father to the huge list of soldiers who betrayed their country by not fighting in Vietnam. Frequently I wonder how my life might have been different had my father (a US Army Mechanized Infantryman) been sent to Southeast Asia during the conflict rather than to Germany to serve with the Berlin Brigade during the Cold War. He's one of the countless Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen and Marines that served their country during the Vietnam crisis in locations other than Vietnam. Let's not forget that service men and women are now and were then serving their country where the Department of Defense required it. I'm not currently serving in Iraq or Afghanistan. The duration of the current rotation schedule to either theater and the requirements either for my unit or my specialty will determine when or if I go. I guess until the moment that I receive orders to serve in either location I, like my father, am a traitor for not fighting in Iraq or Afghanistan. Unbelievable.

Jack briefed on August 25, 2004 02:44 AM

John, it looks to me like Anne Marsh is following the illustrious footsteps of Ann Coulter, where you call anyone who doesn't agree with you a traitor. See what I mean about what happens when we start devaluing the meaning of words?

John of Argghhh! briefed on August 25, 2004 05:10 AM

Geez, Jack. Only you would come in an whizz on my righteous indignation!


beth briefed on August 25, 2004 05:11 AM

Oh, Jack, sometimes I get very frustrated with your holier than thou remarks.

Chris Van Dis briefed on August 25, 2004 09:03 AM

Boy, I know a whole bunch of "betrayers". My Dad, who's National Guard engineering unit didn't get sent over because of the drawdown. My Uncle on an oiler never got closer than a few hundred miles of Vietnam. A friend's Dad, who almost went to oppress poor Fidel during the Cuban Missle Crisis in an M48, even got loaded on a transport. And I guess I am too, because I didn't drop out of my senior year to go to the Gulf the first time, and had been out 3 years when the second time came around.

I hope that little snippet gets lots of play in VFW and Legionare posts across this country. It pissed me off when National Guard service was downplayed to make Quayle look bad, and it pisses me off all over again now that it is being used to try to cast doubt on Bush. If these jackholes want examples of treason, look at John freakin Kerry's trip to Paris to talk to the N. Vietnamese delegation while he was still an inactive reserve officer. Or ask how his picture is in the Vietnamese hall of fame for his support of the NVA and VC after his return. I don't give a flying fig about whether his medals were earned or not. His actions since his return are what makes me detest his existence.

Montieth briefed on August 25, 2004 10:40 AM

As I keep having to repeat to a friend of mine, Single Seat High Performance Jet Fighters are not safe and cozy. Stateside or in a warzone. How many F-16's have lawndarted in the last 5 years? 10 are clearly listed in twice as many stories on F102's were even more likely as they were working in the height of the cold war and flying in some harsh areas for practice intercepts. North over Canada, South over the Gulf (not so harsh) in all weather. I'm sure someone has a list of the F-102's that ended up in the drink, some farmers field or upside down on the runway due to some error in flying (wrong flap setting for a given weight/speed), mechanical failure or series of minor problems that resulted in a major event. Oh, and these aircraft were carrying nukes...No small feat there in not causing a major incident.

Military Aviation isn't super safe, it's not danger close always, but it's not safe.

RC briefed on August 25, 2004 11:16 AM


Good point! A very dear friend and former boss of mine was killed when he got his dream slot of F-16 jockey. He was a UPT instructor with gobs of hours, most of them instructing dumbass newbies in the mysteries of flight. Yet he went to Holloman AFB happy and excited to be flying fighters and left in a box. Fighters are designed to be either unstable or just on the ragged edge, that's what makes them manueverable and dangerous to the bad guys. BTW, my friend didn't lose control of his F-16, he was flying wingman and his lead messed up by a few feet and smashed his wingtip through my friends canopy. Yeah, Bush was a coward (Errr!).

Bugz briefed on August 25, 2004 11:52 AM

Damn clueless fuckwit bastards!

Another betrayer reporting in, then.

I enlisted in the USAF in 1971, but didn't go to Vietnam, so means I betrayed my country, at least according to the Kerry Pukes.

Instead, I eventually went to the USAF Academy, and on to flying Phantoms after flight training.

I flew Phantoms from 1977 to 1988, which put me after Vietnam, and before Desert Storm. Actually, I am proud to tell people that out of the 2000+ hours I logged in the Phantom, there are 0 combat hours. That is because during that period when my buds and I were flying, the bad guys were just too damn scared to try anything stupid, because they knew it would trigger a Rhino stampede on them that no way in Hell they wanted receive.

However, reinforcing other comments in this thread, that doesn't mean that period of service was all just hanging out at the bar, doing bat hangs. Every year I flew, I attended at least one funeral for guys I flew with who died in the jet. Every year, I'd review the number of classmates of mine from the Air Force Academy, who were killed in the line of duty. Daily, I would read the reports, not only from the Air Force, but also Army and Naval aviation regarding fatalities in the inevitable accidents that are a part of modern tactical aviation when conduction realistic, demanding training missions designed to prepare crews for the war.

But I didn't serve in Vietnam, never flew a combat mission, and neither did a lot of these guys who died in the line of duty, so that means we betrayed our country.

Clueless bastards! *spit*

Jack briefed on August 25, 2004 12:19 PM

"Holier than thou", Beth? I don't ever recall saying I was better than anyone here. I just pointed out that words like "traitor" and "betrayal" need to be used carefully, and that people on BOTH sides of the political spectrum are abusing those words.

"Holier than thou" is when a liberal says "those damn conservatives aren't worth crap" or a conservative says "those damn liberals are a bunch of morons", implying that they themselves are better than those they are talking about. I wasn't trying to say anything of that kind here, or anywhere else, for that matter.

DrSteve briefed on August 25, 2004 03:50 PM

I think the statistic is that just under 30 percent of the 875 F-102As placed in service were lost to accidents, killing 70 AF or ANG pilots. (Aerospaceweb)

Fifteen F-102As were lost in Vietnam over a 10-year period, eight to accidents and seven to enemy action. I don't know how many F-102As were sent over there, but wouldn't it be interesting if the plane were "safer" in Vietnam than stateside?

Adam briefed on September 9, 2004 11:53 AM

As the son of the aforementioned Karl Teepe, I feel it appropriate that I respond to your posting about my father. While I can appreicate the irony of what you were saying in comparing my Dad's 22 years of service in the Army and his not having served in Vietnam to the current political brawl over Vietnam service, I still fell it necessary to point out a fallacy in your argument.

Comparing my Dad, who retired as a LTC, to the current President, who spent a few very questionable years in the Alabama National Guard, seems unfair. I don't agree with Mary Ann Marsh calling Bush Jr unamerican since he didn't serve in Vietnam -- that is just wrong. However, I think there are distinct differences between not having been assigned to fight in Vietnam while in the Army and having your Dad use his political clout to get you a state side assignment in Alabama.

I guess taking what Marsh said at face value, you can extend the unamerican label to anyone who didn't serve in Vietnam. It just seems to me that there is more to that statement than face value. The truth of the matter is that President Bush did what anyone would have done under those circumstances and that is the American way.

John of Argghhh! briefed on September 9, 2004 12:14 PM

Adam - thanks for your thoughts.

I don't think my argument is fallacious, however. By
her statement, Marsh said anyone who didn't serve in
Vietnam (and by her wording, anyone in a uniform
during any war who didn't get into combat) betrayed
their country.

I was using the rhetorical gambit of 'reductio ad
absurdum' reducing to absurdity, to point out that by
Marsh's words - your father was a betrayer. Which is
obviously not the case. And to further use the
example to point out how many people fit the category.

I still don't get how flying an F102, which killed
more people than died on the Swift Boats, is
considered 'ducking responsibility'?